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If you’re going to be daft enough...

Old 6th Mar 2021, 19:50
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fortyodd2 View Post
.......just because you can, doesn't mean that you should...............
You always should.
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Old 6th Mar 2021, 20:20
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Originally Posted by JTobias View Post
We’ve become a politically correct, left wing, prissy, woke and snowflake society, so scared of it’s own shadow that the unfounded fear of death has made people frightened to live.................
Bravo!

It boggles the mind that anyone with the zest for life it requires to fly helicopters, particularly those who fly some of the most demanding and dangerous missions, fall into that category. And yet, PPRuNe is completely dominated by such folk.

The situation is 100% opposite in the 'states. This guy would be hailed as a hero, and twice that on the US helicopter social media conclaves. But then we are all ignorant, selfish, unprofessional savages over here, right?

There you go, JT, I'm spreading the pain a little for you! Not so selfish, eh?
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Old 6th Mar 2021, 20:40
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Just so we know what we are talking about, this is the current state of play in England:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national...can-leave-home

When you can leave home

You must not leave or be outside of your home except where you have a ‘reasonable excuse’. This is the law. The police can take action against you if you leave home without a ‘reasonable excuse’, and issue you with a fine (Fixed Penalty Notice).

You can be given a Fixed Penalty Notice of £200 for the first offence, doubling for further offences up to a maximum of £6,400.

A ‘reasonable excuse’ includes:

Work

You can only leave home for work purposes where it is unreasonable for you to do your job from home. This includes, but is not limited to, people who work within critical national infrastructure, construction or manufacturing that require in-person attendance

Volunteering

You can also leave home to provide voluntary or charitable services. You must volunteer from home unless it is not reasonably possible for you to do so.

Essential activities

You can leave home to buy things at shops or obtain services where necessary. You may also leave your home to do these things on behalf of a disabled or vulnerable person or someone self-isolating.

Education and childcare

You can only leave home for education, registered childcare, and supervised activities for children where the child is eligible to attend. Access to education and children’s activities for school-aged pupils is restricted. See further information on education and childcare. You can continue existing arrangements for contact between parents and children where they live apart. If you live in a household with anyone aged under 14, you can also form a childcare bubble.

Meeting others and care

You can leave home:
  • to visit people in your support bubble ( if you are legally permitted to form one)
  • to provide informal childcare for children under 14 as part of a childcare bubble (for example, to enable parents to work, not to enable social contact between adults)
  • to provide care for disabled or vulnerable people
  • to provide emergency assistance
  • to attend a support group (of up to 15 people)
  • for respite care where that care is being provided to a vulnerable person or a person with a disability, or is a short break in respect of a looked-after child.

Exercise

You can continue to exercise alone, with one other person or with your household or support bubble. This should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area.You should maintain social distancing. See the exercising section of this guidance.

Medical reasons

You can leave home for a medical reason, including to get a COVID-19 test, for medical appointments and for emergencies.

Maternity

You can leave home to be with someone who is giving birth or, accessing other maternity services, or to be with a baby receiving neonatal critical care. There is NHS guidance on pregnancy and coronavirus.

Harm

You may leave home, to avoid injury or illness or to escape risk of harm (such as domestic abuse).

Compassionate visits

You may also leave home to visit someone who is dying or someone in a care home (if permitted under care home guidance), hospice, or hospital, or to accompany them to a medical appointment.

Animal welfare reasons

You can leave home for animal welfare reasons, such as to attend veterinary services for advice or treatment.

Communal worship and life events

You can leave home to attend or visit a place of worship for communal worship, to attend a funeral or event related to a death, to visit a burial ground or a remembrance garden, or to attend a wedding ceremony. You should follow the guidance on the safe use of places of worship and must not mingle with anyone outside of your household or support bubble. Weddings, funerals and religious, belief-based or commemorative events linked to someone’s death are all subject to limits on the numbers that can attend.

Further reasonable excuses

There are further reasonable excuses. For example, you may leave home to fulfil legal obligations, or to carry out activities related to buying, selling, letting or renting a residential property, for the purpose of picketing, or where it is reasonably necessary for voting in an election or referendum. See guidance on campaigning during the national lockdown. This applies to anyone campaigning for electoral events.
This is the position for General Aviation (this is guidance rather than law, but all general aviation is subjec to the national law above)

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...neral-aviation

Permitted GA activities

GA flying is permitted for the purposes of work, where it is not reasonably possible to work or provide those services at home. Social distancing measures must be in place and observed at all times.

Flying training organisations providing training for professional pilots, for the purposes of work, may continue to do so. Individuals undertaking such activity may continue to attend for these purposes. Social distancing measures must be in place and observed at all times.

Engine health and maintenance check flights can only take place where there is a critical safety requirement to do so, and alternative options are not available. Such flights, where conducted, must be kept to the minimum duration possible and should land at the same airfield from which they departed, except where this is outside the reasonable control of the pilot.
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Old 7th Mar 2021, 06:25
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
Just so we know what we are talking about, this is the current state of play in England:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national...can-leave-home
Just a word of caution to be careful when quoting gov.uk as the source of law - it isn't. The actual legislation for England is here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/contents
One of the major sources of angst and confusion in this period has been the government issuing legislation - which is legally binding - and then guidelines - which aren't. The guidelines are no more than "ministerial wishes" - they are not statutory and have zero legal status. Nor are they intended (or allowed in law) to be a guide to interpreting the law. This has caused much confusion and gnashing of teeth unnecessarily. For example in that gov.uk page, regarding exercise, many people read " This should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area" as law, when in fact the statute contains no limit to how many times a day you can leave your house for exercise, or how far you can travel. This confusion is further compounded by media coverage of Police issuing (incorrectly) FPNs for people travelling some distance for exercise. FPNs which are later rescinded and apologies issued. We are in a dangerous place as a society when the Police are punishing citizens for complying with the law.

It could well be the case that the chap in the helicopter here was complying with the law. It would be good if those claiming to be in the know could share the facts.

Last edited by silverelise; 7th Mar 2021 at 07:45.
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Old 7th Mar 2021, 10:19
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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I am more interested the sandwich. What’s in that makes It so good and will they deliver......to Malta!
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Old 7th Mar 2021, 10:46
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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JTobias
The fact that we are even locked down is a national disgrace.
No, the fact that people can't see that controlling the spread of the virus is the only way forward is the National disgrace - no snowflakery here just gobsmacked that people can be so selfish so much of the time.

If you know the full story then why not detail it?
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Old 7th Mar 2021, 11:50
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by havick View Post
You always should.
....then you should always accept the responsibility and the consequences.
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Old 7th Mar 2021, 12:08
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
JTobias No, the fact that people can't see that controlling the spread of the virus is the only way forward is the National disgrace - no snowflakery here just gobsmacked that people can be so selfish so much of the time.

If you know the full story then why not detail it?
And you control the spread of the virus by not flying your aircraft?
Are people - during the current state of lockdown - not allowed to buy a sandwich (on foot, or by car)?

No, this is just plain envy (which however is a force to reckon with).
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Old 7th Mar 2021, 13:35
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hot and Hi View Post
And you control the spread of the virus by not flying your aircraft?
Are people - during the current state of lockdown - not allowed to buy a sandwich (on foot, or by car)?

No, this is just plain envy (which however is a force to reckon with).
You control the virus by not mixing or travelling great distances, it is why the UK, and others, have movement restrictions.
One set of rules for everyone, they don't vary based on the thickness of your wallet or your mode of transport.
Buying a sandwich, if it is local, isn't an issue.
It's travelling a distance to get one where the problems start.

Unfortunately some members of the public think they know better, or are smarter, by trying to find loopholes to justify why rules don't apply to them.
Heaven forbid anyone be inconvenienced or have to make sacrifices so we can all emerge from this crisis.
If the same attitudes and weakness of character existed in the 40's, they would all have German accents now.
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Old 7th Mar 2021, 13:41
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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BellRinger - I live in the SW of UK which has the lowest rate of infections and deaths in the country but the majority of us still abide by the restrictions and guidance, despite the City-dwellers who think they have a God-given right to come down here just because of the sea and beaches.
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Old 7th Mar 2021, 13:48
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Outrage is a default setting in the UK. The government and large corporations have set people against each other to have you all just where they want you. Divide and conquer is the new maxim whichever way you look. About time we all just started being responsible for our own actions and not monitoring everyone else's.



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Old 7th Mar 2021, 13:52
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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About time we all just started being responsible for our own actions
that would be a welcome change
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Old 7th Mar 2021, 14:09
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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If only he was testing his eyes...
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Old 7th Mar 2021, 14:50
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by silverelise View Post
Just a word of caution to be careful when quoting gov.uk as the source of law - it isn't. The actual legislation for England is here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/contents
One of the major sources of angst and confusion in this period has been the government issuing legislation - which is legally binding - and then guidelines - which aren't. The guidelines are no more than "ministerial wishes" - they are not statutory and have zero legal status. Nor are they intended (or allowed in law) to be a guide to interpreting the law. This has caused much confusion and gnashing of teeth unnecessarily. For example in that gov.uk page, regarding exercise, many people read " This should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area" as law, when in fact the statute contains no limit to how many times a day you can leave your house for exercise, or how far you can travel. This confusion is further compounded by media coverage of Police issuing (incorrectly) FPNs for people travelling some distance for exercise. FPNs which are later rescinded and apologies issued. We are in a dangerous place as a society when the Police are punishing citizens for complying with the law.

It could well be the case that the chap in the helicopter here was complying with the law. It would be good if those claiming to be in the know could share the facts.
That's exactly the point: unless we know the reason for the flight, we have no way of understanding the legality or otherwise of it, & neither do the press or anyone else. I've been involved in other heated debates where the guidelines & legislation have been markedly different, to the detriment of those complying with the law. The law seems to be written by the legislators & cross checked appropriately - the guidelines often appear to be written by an intern during a coffee break...
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Old 7th Mar 2021, 15:00
  #35 (permalink)  

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As a keen motorcyclist, what I’ve found quite pathetic is “clever” people boasting on social media about the 50 mile scenic ride out they’ve just done on their motorbike to get some “essential” groceries. I’ve recently seen photos some genius has posted with a pack of toilet rolls strapped to his pillion seat, as his excuse.

My own bikes have been locked away since last autumn and they can stay that way until the government guidelines change.

Having said that, I have flown for work purposes (these days I don’t fly for leisure).
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Old 7th Mar 2021, 15:12
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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We've all been going at this long enough by now that the stark realities and necessities should have taken hold, even in the most stubborn or challenged of minds.
It really does not matter what is enshrined in law, or written in a guideline.
Our responsibility as a member of society, who hopefully also considers other people, not just themselves, are quite clear.
Some common sense and common courtesy and respect should apply.

It is easy to say general aviation is not a major factor so why should it be subject to regulation.
It is all lowest common denominator thinking.
Parts of the public always take advantage and that ruins it for everyone else.
Complex regulations that treat people differently are impossible to enforce and just create the perception of a lack of fairness.
So we all suffer together, equally.

It would have been easy to get all the misbehaving and flouting under control, all they needed to do was hold a few public floggings of instagram-influencers and B-grade pop goddesses.

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Old 7th Mar 2021, 16:43
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Originally Posted by Bell_ringer View Post
We've all been going at this long enough by now that the stark realities and necessities should have taken hold, even in the most stubborn or challenged of minds.
It really does not matter what is enshrined in law, or written in a guideline.
Our responsibility as a member of society, who hopefully also considers other people, not just themselves, are quite clear.
Some common sense and common courtesy and respect should apply.

It is easy to say general aviation is not a major factor so why should it be subject to regulation.
It is all lowest common denominator thinking.
Parts of the public always take advantage and that ruins it for everyone else.
Complex regulations that treat people differently are impossible to enforce and just create the perception of a lack of fairness.
So we all suffer together, equally.

It would have been easy to get all the misbehaving and flouting under control, all they needed to do was hold a few public floggings of instagram-influencers and B-grade pop goddesses.
It absolutely does matter - how else would society continue to function?
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Old 7th Mar 2021, 17:43
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by alfaman View Post
It absolutely does matter - how else would society continue to function?
Societies don’t function because of what is written into law, they work because it is understood what is socially acceptable and what part an individual plays.
If we only behave in a way that’s defined by lawmakers, humanity would have long-since ceased to be.

Its the difference between regulations and good airmanship.

This really shouldn’t be difficult to comprehend.
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Old 7th Mar 2021, 17:48
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JTobias,

your stance is quite clear about Covid19 and the national lockdown; however, this is a global pandemic and it's quite obvious now that maintaining pre-existing levels of social interaction would have caused more suffering.

I do understand the levels of risk involved, it's no worse than picking up a burger at a drive through, as a publicity stunt however, it's not so much a shot in the foot but a howitzer.

You've been called out on the reason which you've alluded to as being altruistic but have remained silent; You are indeed at liberty to defend who you like, but you've not provided any mitigating circumstances to make anyone reconsider.

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Old 7th Mar 2021, 17:58
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Originally Posted by Bell_ringer View Post
Societies don’t function because of what is written into law, they work because it is understood what is socially acceptable and what part an individual plays.
If we only behave in a way that’s defined by lawmakers, humanity would have long-since ceased to be.

Its the difference between regulations and good airmanship.

This really shouldn’t be difficult to comprehend.
In normal times, perhaps, but we aren't living in normal times. The current situation has placed controls on normal acceptable behaviours, so understanding precisely what those controls are is important, otherwise chaos & anarchy reign - in other words, people make sh!t up to suit themselves, on both sides of the legislative equation. The evidence of that is plain to see, so it is not about the difference between legislation & airmanship, it's about understanding what breaks the law & what doesn't: is that too much for you to comprehend..?
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