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R44 crashed Alps

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R44 crashed Alps

Old 27th Oct 2020, 10:48
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R44 crashed Alps

https://www.heli-archive.ch/en/helic...APK12uRztFDaGc

one died, one survived.
Rescuers had problems finding the ELT (Reflections from the mountains?)

Other fixed wing pilots reported strong gusty winds between 25 and 35 knots in the area
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 11:26
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From WIKI with some links

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/244398

Owner/operator: Private Registration: I-OLLI C/n / msn: 11439 Fatalities: Fatalities: 1 / Occupants: 2 Other fatalities: 0 Aircraft damage: Written off (damaged beyond repair) Location: Cervinia (AO) - Italy Phase: Unknown Nature: Private Departure airport:
Destination airport:
Narrative:
The helicopter crashed at an elevation of about 3000 m in the Alps. Both occupants had going skiing and were flying back at 16:00 hours local time. The helicopter did not arrive at the destination and an ELT signal was detected.
Sources:
https://aostasera.it/notizie/cronaca...-ed-un-ferito/
https://ansv.it/incidente-nella-valle-daosta-2/
https://www.bresciatoday.it/cronaca/...gio-oliva.html
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 12:40
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For anyone unfamiliar with the area, here's a topographical map. There's a helicopter mountain landing site just on the Swiss side of the border (where "Rifugio" is marked) near the 3444m elevation mark, so it could be speculated that they landed there as it is provides access to a ski resort.

Topographical map of the area. The Swiss-Italian border is the violet line on the top right. Based off the news reports, the approximate crash area is highlighted in red.
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Old 29th Oct 2020, 21:03
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A very sad sight
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Old 29th Oct 2020, 21:24
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I believe they found one survivor who spent many hours in sub zero temperatures. Did he not make it ?

Last edited by atakacs; 30th Oct 2020 at 23:39.
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Old 30th Oct 2020, 08:03
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With all that is known about the Robinson susceptibility to mast bumping in turbulence - why would you go flying in the mountains in 25 - 30 Kt winds???
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Old 30th Oct 2020, 08:35
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Crab because they are invincible !
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Old 30th Oct 2020, 21:32
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
With all that is known about the Robinson susceptibility to mast bumping in turbulence - why would you go flying in the mountains in 25 - 30 Kt winds???
why would you go and fly a Robinson at all... 😥
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Old 31st Oct 2020, 00:26
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Originally Posted by casper64 View Post
why would you go and fly a Robinson at all... 😥
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Old 31st Oct 2020, 02:34
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Originally Posted by Robbiee View Post
Congratulations! You've just won the "Butthurt over Robinsons" comment of the week!


Click the following link to claim your prize!

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And once again your paranoia has showed itself, and off we go again with your same old shite! ...
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Old 31st Oct 2020, 05:17
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I'm accustomed to more astute observations from the usual posters. First the fuel cel red herring, lots of other helicopters didn't have them and they'd burn when crashed as did some that did, at any rate it didn't burn so nothing interesting there. Then the mast bumping based on what, wind? If there is some evidence the mast sheared I've been unable to find it. I'm more interested in weather and daylight and pilot. They departed at 16:00, sunset was at what, 17:20? Maybe dark sooner depending on cloud cover? 3000m is pretty high for an R44, but they weren't landing or taking off, and they were light. Just 'cause it was a Robbie isn't a reason to crash in itself. They are favoured by private owner/operators for cost though, similar to the Norway R44. Do we know any more about the pilot or the weather?
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Old 31st Oct 2020, 05:18
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Originally Posted by nomorehelosforme View Post
And once again your paranoia has showed itself, and off we go again with your same old shite! ...
I don't think paranoia means what you think it means.
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Old 31st Oct 2020, 07:00
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
With all that is known about the Robinson susceptibility to mast bumping in turbulence - why would you go flying in the mountains in 25 - 30 Kt winds???
I am not anti-Robinson but we must acknowledge that very light blades are more sensitive to turbulence & mast bumping.
Heavy blades retain their plane of rotation long enough to handle sudden strong gusts.
But they require extra strength (heavy) laminations & spar at the root end to handle bending loads at the root (blade coning)

Frank came up with a good solution to save ounces and pounds in the rotor system
By incorporating coning hinges at the root which relieved any coning stress
Thus he could build very light blades .... which had the additional benefits of lower centrifugal force on the hub and feather bearings which meant he could build a lighter head.

Early blade de-laminations were the first red flag , but were attributed to outsourced blade manufacturing errors
Then came the numerous unexplained rotor incursions into the cabin or boom. A big red flag ... not to mention further de-laminations through the years

Easy for me to say ... but if he (stubborn frank) had halted production , built a blade similar to the H269 , strengthened the hub to take the extra loads , the problem would have been solved.

Of course those several pounds of weight would have reduced payload .... but extra pitch along with extra power from the de-rated engine should solve that ..... working the Lycoming a bit harder would likely reduce TBO from 2200 hrs to 1800 hrs which is still excellent for piston helicopters.

I am also suspicious of having 3 hinge points on a 2 blade rotor .... if a split second disturbance caused one blade to pivot on a coning hinge it would immediately put everything out of phase and would self-destruct.
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Old 31st Oct 2020, 08:10
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I personally wouldn't fly a Robbie in mountains, time and time again we see this accident. It is obvious to me that when a Robbie is flown in mountainous terrain and it lands where it intended then the pilot got away with it and they didnt know how close to the edge they were. So they will do it again.

Its the wrong tool for the job, use a heli not susceptible to mast bumping if you want to fly over high hills or mountains.

No disrespect to people involved.
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Old 31st Oct 2020, 09:03
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Originally Posted by HeliMannUK View Post
Its the wrong tool for the job, use a heli not susceptible to mast bumping if you want to fly over high hills or mountains.
So no 205s, 212s, 214s, UH-1s in the hills either?

Think being aware of rotors and having wind limits makes sense, but avoiding mast bumping is about training and awareness.

And that is why there are a lot of Robbie accidents, esp R44: Low cost helicopter meets low experience pilot flying in a low discipline environment.

TT
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Old 31st Oct 2020, 09:52
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I think this is the right way of putting it.
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Old 31st Oct 2020, 09:56
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Originally Posted by casper64 View Post
why would you go and fly a Robinson at all... 😥
If you donít, and if you fly a helicopter that is four or ten times more expensive, and if you bought your helicopter with your own money, then you would know why.

Last edited by Hot and Hi; 31st Oct 2020 at 10:18.
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Old 31st Oct 2020, 10:11
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Originally Posted by Torquetalk View Post
So no 205s, 212s, 214s, UH-1s in the hills either?

Think being aware of rotors and having wind limits makes sense, but avoiding mast bumping is about training and awareness.

And that is why there are a lot of Robbie accidents, esp R44: Low cost helicopter meets low experience pilot flying in a low discipline environment.

TT
No, these models don't have the coning hinges in the head as Arnie Madsen describes above.
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Old 31st Oct 2020, 10:39
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Originally Posted by Nubian View Post
No, these models don't have the coning hinges in the head as Arnie Madsen describes above.
It may be that by design that Robbies are less tolerant to turbulence thaN the other 2-blade helicopters mentioned, but all can experience mast bumping. I think singling out the helicopter and not the more relevant factors in these accidents is the wrong focus. People just need to be more aware of the limitations of the aircraft. And particularly of their own.
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Old 31st Oct 2020, 12:27
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How many other teetering head machines have speed warnings for turbulence in the manual?
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