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Long Lines

Old 18th Jul 2007, 10:43
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
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tecpilot,

Keep your hair on! The last time I did any longlining was about 12 years ago, Dyneema probably wasn't invented, it certainly wasn't when I started 25 years ago anyway!

As the AS350 is the prevalent type in Europe as the Llama fades away, I understand your need for a slightly damped cable. Yes I remember changing Starflex's in the early 80's for this very reason. We used a damper (snubber made from car tyre, hey it worked) but stuck with the steel and chain because there was nothing else.

Imagine cracking a whip and your helicopter is at the end!! Yes I do understand the dynamics, and now with a B3 operating at higher weights and loadings using basically the same Starflex it is an even bigger issue.

Dyneema or steel in the M/R probably makes no difference to the result!!

I have seen a case of a piece of Vectra that certainly had the same net result.

Remember that in most countries what you use from the hook down is NOT certified to aviation requirements. It MAY need to be certified by other authorities depending on where you operate.

Yes I used to have certificates for both cable and chain. They may be heavier, but I know which is easier to inspect for wear and damage!

My post was not conclusive as I did mention I think!

"To be old and wise, first you have to be young and stupid"
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Old 9th May 2020, 10:53
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: bkk
Posts: 91
Long Lines

What length of strop is considered 'long lining' and can any operator give me an example of lengths they've used and for what purpose.
Is there a theoretical maximum length that can be used?
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Old 9th May 2020, 11:56
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
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It sounds you have no experience with long lines.... What is the reason behind your question?

If you have never flown long line before-don't do it.
It's a skill that needs a good instructor, and is nothing that can be self taught.

The length is dictated by the type of flight.

If I need to install an air condition unit in an environment full of wires, the line could be 250 or even 500 ft long.

From my experience, 120 to 180 ft is pretty standard.



​​​​​
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Old 9th May 2020, 13:32
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Originally Posted by hueyracer View Post
It sounds you have no experience with long lines.... What is the reason behind your question?










​​​​​
I have zero experience of long lining.
The purpose of the question is to elicit an answer from someone who has.
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Old 9th May 2020, 16:20
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
Posts: 1,820
In the US anything over 50' is considered long lining.

length used depends on the task at hand. 100' is most common, although for pole sets and HEC on power lines we prefer 60'.

Fire fighting ca go anywhere from 100 to 250 depending on terrain and fuel type.
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Old 9th May 2020, 20:47
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
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Yep, anything longer than 50' is long lining.
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Old 9th May 2020, 23:30
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: London/Atlanta
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Just a quick translation between Europe and USA. 20 meters is approximately 60 feet Iím sure most know that just in case!
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Old 9th May 2020, 23:36
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: London/Atlanta
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Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
In the US anything over 50' is considered long lining.

length used depends on the task at hand. 100' is most common, although for pole sets and HEC on power lines we prefer 60'.

Fire fighting ca go anywhere from 100 to 250 depending on terrain and fuel type.
Gordy, at 250 that must be bloody difficult to control, obviously there must be reasons to have it so long? Would be interesting to hear your feedback.
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Old 10th May 2020, 00:03
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Canada
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Originally Posted by kangaroota View Post
I have zero experience of long lining.
The purpose of the question is to elicit an answer from someone who has.
Because hueyracer is trying to SAVE YOUR LIFE.
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Old 10th May 2020, 00:45
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: St Johns, Newfoundland,Canada
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Most of our work is long line. Moving drills we normally use 100ft, works really well for precision stuff. Although I prefer 130ft with our Astars. Bird towing we normally use 200ft lines although last year I did a contract bird towing the client used a 300ft, didnít really make it any harder to be precise. Just my take with 10,000+ hours on a long line. Hope alls well with you Gordy, regards from Canada 🇨🇦.
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Old 10th May 2020, 01:01
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
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Originally Posted by newfieboy View Post
Most of our work is long line. Moving drills we normally use 100ft, works really well for precision stuff. Although I prefer 130ft with our Astars. Bird towing we normally use 200ft lines although last year I did a contract bird towing the client used a 300ft, didnít really make it any harder to be precise. Just my take with 10,000+ hours on a long line. Hope alls well with you Gordy, regards from Canada 🇨🇦.
With 10k plus can only say congrats, I still ask at real long lines who is calling the shout, have seen great work with antennas and some terrible work with EMS rescues?
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Old 10th May 2020, 01:20
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
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Originally Posted by nomorehelosforme View Post
Gordy, at 250 that must be bloody difficult to control, obviously there must be reasons to have it so long? Would be interesting to hear your feedback.
250' is used by the type 1 helicopters-----(Chinooks, S-61's, BlackHawks), as the down wash is so great that the more distance between the helicopter and the bucket the better. Does not make it harder at all---just a different sight picture is all, and you need to be smooth...

Originally Posted by newfieboy View Post
Gordy, regards from Canada 🇨🇦.
Newfie: How ya been? Hope you are well? Ramping up for fires here in CA, although doing a lot more power line work these days..... Stay smart.

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Old 10th May 2020, 01:28
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
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Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
250' is used by the type 1 helicopters-----(Chinooks, S-61's, BlackHawks), as the down wash is so great that the more distance between the helicopter and the bucket the better. Does not make it harder at all---just a different sight picture is all, and you need to be smooth...



Newfie: How ya been? Hope you are well? Ramping up for fires here in CA, although doing a lot more power line work these days..... Stay smart.
Gordy, are the fires starting again, havenít seen anything in the press.. not that means much?
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Old 10th May 2020, 02:43
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
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Originally Posted by nomorehelosforme View Post
Gordy, are the fires starting again, havenít seen anything in the press.. not that means much?
Yes, there are always fires......most people have no clue about them unless there is loss of many homes. Year to date 13,307 reported wild fires in the US. As the temperatures rise, the fire season slowly moves West. One of my helicopters goes on contract in two weeks with the USFS on exclusive contract with the Trinity National Forest...

National Inter-agency Fire Center
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Old 10th May 2020, 04:15
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: bkk
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Originally Posted by Old Dogs View Post
Because hueyracer is trying to SAVE YOUR LIFE.
To those of you who managed to take time to give intelligent answers to what I thought was a reasonable question, my thanks.
To those who need to over psycho-analyse everything that appears on PPRuNe, and there's always one or two every thread, I will let you get a good nights sleep by telling you that I don't fly helicopters, have no intention of learning and the only long lining I may pursue in future will pertain to fishing.
IT WAS JUST A [email protected]%#ING QUESTION:u gh:
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Old 10th May 2020, 13:49
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: East of Africa
Age: 45
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A few years ago, I was sent a similar question like yours by a guy I knew...

Turned out his company asked him to long line a generator, without him having done long line ever before.

Company told him it would be "just like sling load, no problem", and that they would send an experienced long line pilot who had no experience on that type to assist him.

Turned out this guy had not done long line either.


Despite all my warnings, the company pushed them to do it.

The load came off the ground, and as the aircraft gained speed, they shifted their attention from vr to inside... Dropped in altitude, generator hooked onto a tree, and they crashed into the ground, leaving a 10m hole on the ground after Impact at more than 200 km per hour.

So if my reply ***** you off-I don't care 2 CT about it.

In this business you need to learn from other people mistakes.... Because you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.
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Old 10th May 2020, 23:27
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: australia
Age: 57
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Originally Posted by hueyracer View Post
It sounds you have no experience with long lines.... What is the reason behind your question?

If you have never flown long line before-don't do it.
It's a skill that needs a good instructor, and is nothing that can be self taught.

The length is dictated by the type of flight.

If I need to install an air condition unit in an environment full of wires, the line could be 250 or even 500 ft long.

From my experience, 120 to 180 ft is pretty standard.



​​​​​
. 500 feet? Whereís that done?
rottenjohn is offline  
Old 11th May 2020, 10:13
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: East of Africa
Age: 45
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We did a construction job in Germany once with it......it was in a steep valley in the middle of a power plant, so high tension wires everywhere.

250 was not long enough, as we would have gotten too close to the wires....so a 500 ft line was used (nothing i would recommend)..

Then again, we used one in Congo, where we flew in geologists who wanted to explore a sink hole.......but that was only a short flight, picking them up on the line a few hundred meters away from the sink hole, then lowered them into it until they were safely on the ground...


In both cases, we used radios to get a feedback on distance above the ground........


But-again; i would not recommend anything longer than 250 ft.....or maybe its just me....
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Old 11th May 2020, 11:13
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: australia
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Originally Posted by hueyracer View Post
We did a construction job in Germany once with it......it was in a steep valley in the middle of a power plant, so high tension wires everywhere.

250 was not long enough, as we would have gotten too close to the wires....so a 500 ft line was used (nothing i would recommend)..

Then again, we used one in Congo, where we flew in geologists who wanted to explore a sink hole.......but that was only a short flight, picking them up on the line a few hundred meters away from the sink hole, then lowered them into it until they were safely on the ground...


In both cases, we used radios to get a feedback on distance above the ground........


But-again; i would not recommend anything longer than 250 ft.....or maybe its just me....
Be interesting to see some photos
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Old 11th May 2020, 14:27
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: east ESSEX
Posts: 3,814
Had to do a couple of live long-line `extractions` some 55 yrs ago during our `Confrontation` with the Indonesians.The first was supposed to be a lift of 4 SAS,out of an LZ that they would have`cleared` of `boobies`,hopefully,but as they were `in a hurry` and zig-zagging to lay false trails,and one was ill,we were to winch them out...I, being a `junior` was acting as winch-operator,so off we went,hoping 150-200ft. highto find the SARBE beacon.They weren`t near the LZ,but still in primary jungle,and the winch only was 60ft long.So, I lowered down 2 abseil tapes with 2 rescue strops and a sandbag as `penetrators` thru` the trees which were probably 150-200 ft. tall.After much arm signalling( no direct comms) 2 got into the strops,and we lifted them out and flew them to a beach about 3-4 miles away,then went back to pick up the other 2,back to the beach,and then back to base.One had lost his rifle as we`d managed to drag them thru` a few trees,so he was mighty `pissed-off`,expecting a `Court-martial`,but it was `all sorted..."

The second one was about a Gurkha CSM who was shot,badly injured during a fire-fight on a `Claret` operation. A winch-out was authorised and I was again the winch-op volunteer.It was again a SARBE search to find the `clearing` that the casevac was at,but it was also now almost nightfall and it had started to rain heavily as we set off from a support artillery LZ.Eventually we found the `hole` and some torchlights of the ground-party,and let down to the tree-tops,but there was no way in,still well above winch cable length..So,`plan B`,attach stretcher to 2 abseil tapes,attached to aircraft,lower into hole and wait,illuminated by lightning and heavy rain,as the evening thunderstorm got going.We also had the Gurkha battalion Colonel on board who was trying to abseil down to the ground-party,however,I had to tell him using long `£%$^&**%$ words that he was not...
Eventually,we got some sort of signal that it was all secure below, and started to lift out,and then put the landing lights on to check we were above the trees with the stretcher/casevac,some 200 ft below,turned around and headed back to the LZ,probably a couple of miles,put it on the ground,into aircraft and then back to base,then to hospital...The pilot was absolutely `knackered`,so we were sent on leave....
The `back-story` to the rescue ,for those who wish can be found on WIKI,`Claret Operations`,references,` External reports,`,Captain John Masters RNZA MC`....bottom of page...
Sorry it`s not your normal long-lining accounts.....
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