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Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

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Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

Old 27th Jan 2020, 06:06
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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I just worked through the last few FR24 data points. There is no way this was horizontal CFIT. If you extrapolate one more data point, they would have been at 1300 feet and the rising terrain would be at about 1100. Not exactly a generous margin, but six inches is enough! The pictures suggest they did not actually fly into a hillside, though they would have done soon.

BUT... the final recorded speed is 153, 2 knots below Vne (155 according to Wikipedia), So extrapolating for a few seconds they would have been well above Vne. Maybe an S76 pilot on here has some idea of where RBS happens? In any case they were headed down at ~5000 fpm in a steep left bank, not a good starting point.

As others have said, why was he pressing on at 130 in these conditions? Personally in a heli I'd be at walking speed!

Below are the last few FR24 data points - note that the turn rate towards the end is approaching 360 degrees/minute (quick calculation says about 40-45 degree bank). I used them to draw a crude map on top of the topo map: https://caltopo.com/m/P69T

I know people shouldn't speculate, maybe it was mechanical failure, yadda yadda. But honestly...

-- pilot already knows he's flying close to the limits
-- hill looms up out of the murk
-- oh sh!t!
-- loads of aft cyclic/collective/left cyclic
-- enters cloud, not prepared for a sudden transition to the gauges
-- loses it

Time Lat Long Alt V Hdg
2020-01-26T17:44:13Z N72EX 34.149902,-118.664902 1250 130 258
2020-01-26T17:44:39Z N72EX 34.151505,-118.684235 1250 131 278
2020-01-26T17:44:49Z N72EX 34.151321,-118.691078 1525 118 257
2020-01-26T17:45:00Z N72EX 34.148861,-118.697037 1750 115 233
2020-01-26T17:45:08Z N72EX 34.145741,-118.701096 1950 111 225
2020-01-26T17:45:15Z N72EX 34.143040,-118.703323 2125 110 207
2020-01-26T17:45:23Z N72EX 34.138824,-118.703407 2050 127 163
2020-01-26T17:45:29Z N72EX 34.135498,-118.699608 1700 153 120
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Old 27th Jan 2020, 06:21
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
An update on the crash and the victims:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ter-crash.html
Ever since the incident occurred, I've been looking at news articles trying to find the scheduling constraint that made completion of the flight within those next few minutes surrounding the time of the crash imperative, and here it is.

Bryant, the 18-time NBA All-Star was said to have been headed to Mamba Academy - which he founded - in Thousand Oaks for a youth tournament involving his daughter and her teammate Alyssa.

The tournament, an event with a hard start time, was almost certainly the impetus for pressure the pilot felt. He likely considered the successful delivery of the two girls and their fathers (one being the pilot's employer) to the tournament as a key in the relationship of the families, and also the pilot's standing in Bryant's eyes as a guy that could be depended upon to make things happen. I believe this attribute would be highly valued by the fiercely competitive NBA superstar.

Those of you in the UK would be familiar with this self-imposed pressure on helicopter aircrews, as an accident with most of the same ingredients occurred in 2014. The crash involved a high-profile owner, absolutely qualified aircrew, and a recent model superbly equipped twin engine aircraft.

The zero/zero takeoff was in fog at night from an estate in Norfolk. From reading the thread on PPRuNe, I gathered the crew had relaxed their inviolable standards because of external pressures. This type of insidious event happens all too often, and one must be prepared to voice a firm "No" when they are presented.
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Old 27th Jan 2020, 06:27
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe an S76 pilot on here has some idea of where RBS happens?
Not until much later, I have seen 180kt when I hit a sudden headwind from a cold front (no cloud), me at 145kt with a 30kt tailwind, and smacking into the headwind at 45kt. Talked to Nick Lappos about it, he said that because the machine was not powering itself to those speeds, and that I had lowered the lever and slowed down, there is no problem.
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Old 27th Jan 2020, 06:35
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bell_ringer View Post
If you put it down to live to see another day, chances are that people with clipboards will come and ask awkward questions about why a VFR pilot is flying around in the soup.
And yet, in 35 years Iíve never had anyone question my landing except the police ( who in these days of cell phones always seem to get called ) and nothing has ever happened as a result of talking to the police. I tell them I landed because of the weather, they ask a couple ( sometimes silly ) questions. They drive away and I never hear anything else about it.
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Old 27th Jan 2020, 06:42
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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I have seen 180kt
Thanks. Extrapolating - always a risky thing to do - says the next data point would have been at 1300 feet and 188 Knots, or thereabouts.

I also notice it has hit the ground on its left side - not rolled after landing, judging from the impact damage. Given a very steep left bank and maybe the beginning of RBS... all adds up. The debris field is big, it was obviously breaking up before it hit the ground.

From the Daily Mail photos and a bit of extrapolation on my map overlay, it hits the ground at just about exactly 1000 feet.
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Old 27th Jan 2020, 06:53
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not sure you can rely 100% on FR24 data when the aircraft is at law altitude. Just watch how the FR24 plots sometimes jumps around on the screen...
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Old 27th Jan 2020, 06:54
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Paul Cantrell View Post
And yet, in 35 years Iíve never had anyone question my landing except the police ( who in these days of cell phones always seem to get called ) and nothing has ever happened as a result of talking to the police. I tell them I landed because of the weather, they ask a couple ( sometimes silly ) questions. They drive away and I never hear anything else about it.
But in the rest of the world..
There may be a few people still with us if there was more accountability.
The FAA get held up as a shiny example of how everyone else should do it, as was demonstrated with Boeing's Max, when they don't do their job people tend to end up dead.
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Old 27th Jan 2020, 06:59
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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A ppruner posted a link of the crash caught on mobile phone which I watched this morning and has been removed, I can't even find a link of it on the internet. The video is quite disturbing and confronting. CFIT it is not.

Update: This is not the crash. Ignore.

Last edited by cattletruck; 27th Jan 2020 at 07:15. Reason: correction
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Old 27th Jan 2020, 07:09
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cattletruck View Post
A ppruner posted a link of the crash caught on mobile phone which I watched this morning and has been removed, I can't even find a link of it on the internet. The video is quite disturbing and confronting. CFIT it is not.
Was this the video? In which case it wasn't the right crash - [removed]

Edit: I've removed the link as it was a news story that included footage from a different crash. People have apparently been circulating it claiming it to be footage of Kobe's helicopter when in fact it was an AW139 that crashed in Dubai about 13 months ago.

Last edited by ApolloHeli; 27th Jan 2020 at 07:24.
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Old 27th Jan 2020, 07:09
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by n5296s View Post
..Given a very steep left bank and maybe the beginning of RBS... all adds up. The debris field is big, it was obviously breaking up before it hit the ground.
RBS. No way.
Obviously breaking up before it hit the ground. Nope.
Hit the ground inverted at speed and what was your whole helicopter turns into a whole lot of small helicopter pieces splattered over a very wide area.
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Old 27th Jan 2020, 07:17
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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RBS. No way.
Why are you so certain? Not saying you're wrong, just curious? It was way beyond Vne (most likely) and probably above 180, and almost certainly in a 45+ degree left bank.

What else goes wrong once you exceed Vne? Not flutter I guess, which is generally what brings FW to a sorry end. Or do the rotor blades flutter? Do helicopters have the concept of Vc (speed at which bits fall off, roughly speaking, >Vne)?
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Old 27th Jan 2020, 07:18
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bell_ringer View Post
But in the rest of the world..
There may be a few people still with us if there was more accountability.
The FAA get held up as a shiny example of how everyone else should do it, as was demonstrated with Boeing's Max, when they don't do their job people tend to end up dead.
Not 100% sure what you are saying? Are you arguing that FAA isnít doing their oversight? That they should investigate and possibly intimidate so that people are less likely to land as a precaution?

The current VFR weather minimums are very permissive ( and Iím glad they are ), so if you are arguing that we are too lax about VFR then I would think we would attack the problem by changing the VFR weather minimums, not go after people making precautionary landings.

What I would rather see is a change to certification rules to make IFR helicopter certification easier / less expensive, and to make IFR approaches workable for the way we operate helicopters ( make it easy to set up an approach to an open field for use by helicopters ). Remove the incentive for scud running...

Apologies if I misunderstood the point you were trying to make...

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Old 27th Jan 2020, 07:27
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by n5296s View Post
..What else goes wrong once you exceed Vne?
Nothing, apart from wearing out a few bits at a much faster rate. There is so much margin built into the Vne on a S76 you can fly right through it and not notice a thing.
200 kts. Yeah, maybe. 160/170/180 just no way.
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Old 27th Jan 2020, 08:14
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Paul Cantrell View Post
Not 100% sure what you are saying? Are you arguing that FAA isnít doing their oversight? That they should investigate and possibly intimidate so that people are less likely to land as a precaution?
This is going off at a bit of a tangent so I will leave this here.
Peoples behaviour can often be driven by what they can get away with.
Take a look at Brazil or even Russia, they have a poor safety culture predominantly because there is little oversight or consequence for behaviour.
Regulation is a sensitive topic, no one wants their fun ruined but they exist because of hard lessons learned over time.
I doubt anyone has achieved the goldilocks standard of "just right" regulation and no one would encourage over-regulation.
That said, if you have been caught out doing something you shouldn't have been doing, then your actions should be questioned and you should answer for that.
It's how you weed out the bad apples and keep people honest.
Historically the FAA has been quite relaxed in their approach, the modern examples of FLYNYON and the MAX demonstrate what can happen when people are left to regulate themselves. Like anything, the majority then have to live with consequences from the behavior of the few.
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Old 27th Jan 2020, 08:29
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Last night / my time I picked FR24 data,
than used Google Earth with available ADS B points, than put all in some side perspective,
please notice 6 and 8 seconds time between last three received positions.


and


Last edited by 9Aplus; 27th Jan 2020 at 09:10. Reason: erased already published content
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Old 27th Jan 2020, 09:05
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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Good morning britain with Piers Morgan had a chopper pilot that appeared to be a genuine expert who expressed himself extremely well and knew the location. From his analysis it appeared the chopper went into a typical holding pattern considering the deteriorating weather then crashed which led to the conclusions of either the unlikely event of a mechanical failure or loss of spacial awareness.
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Old 27th Jan 2020, 10:09
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ThreeThreeMike View Post
Ever since the incident occurred, I've been looking at news articles trying to find the scheduling constraint that made completion of the flight within those next few minutes surrounding the time of the crash imperative, and here it is.

Bryant, the 18-time NBA All-Star was said to have been headed to Mamba Academy - which he founded - in Thousand Oaks for a youth tournament involving his daughter and her teammate Alyssa.

The tournament, an event with a hard start time, was almost certainly the impetus for pressure the pilot felt. He likely considered the successful delivery of the two girls and their fathers (one being the pilot's employer) to the tournament as a key in the relationship of the families, and also the pilot's standing in Bryant's eyes as a guy that could be depended upon to make things happen. I believe this attribute would be highly valued by the fiercely competitive NBA superstar.

Those of you in the UK would be familiar with this self-imposed pressure on helicopter aircrews, as an accident with most of the same ingredients occurred in 2014. The crash involved a high-profile owner, absolutely qualified aircrew, and a recent model superbly equipped twin engine aircraft.

The zero/zero takeoff was in fog at night from an estate in Norfolk. From reading the thread on PPRuNe, I gathered the crew had relaxed their inviolable standards because of external pressures. This type of insidious event happens all too often, and one must be prepared to voice a firm "No" when they are presented.
Exec helicopter flying......commercial/owner pressure .... from my experience the biggest flight safety problem for any pilot by far
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Old 27th Jan 2020, 10:28
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Absolutely agree 76fan. Those execs and/or celebs using light aircraft or helicopters to get to major events like weddings and baseball games etc don't seem to allow much contingency to allow for delays due to weather. Virtually an entire family was killed recently in UK when a helicopter crashed in bad weather near Snowdonia en route to a wedding in Ireland (Dublin - I think). Imagine the pressure on the owner/pilot as the weather closed in. How could all 6 of them (maybe more- can't remember) miss the wedding?? He simply HAD to get past that high ground. Don't think he even tried to go around it. Went IFR and crashed. No survivors.
Why didn't they leave the day before? At least that would have afforded some options.
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Old 27th Jan 2020, 10:42
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Arfur Dent View Post
Why didn't they leave the day before? At least that would have afforded some options.
Celebrities usually have obligations 7 days a week, often more than 1 per day. Their schedules are tight, so delays are more impactful.
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Old 27th Jan 2020, 10:42
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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flight path

anyone with conclusions regarding the flight path as indicated on the recording? he initially plans to go north alongside the 5, turning west into 101. gets put into hold over glendale, 15 minute delay, then is told to go north towards 118, north of van nuys, catch 101 south. another loss of time. he never gets to 101 southbound. tries to cross van nuys a moment after he got to 118. is he now in a hurry?
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