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Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

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Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

Old 31st Jan 2020, 19:19
  #381 (permalink)  
MLH
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Originally Posted by Hot and Hi View Post

TWAS helps an IFR flight to stay away from terrain. Here we deal with an VFR flight that went into IMC (“conditions”) but never adopted IFR (“rules”). The pilot was acutely aware of the proximity of terrain (so no further benefit of a TWAS telling him) and used his limited or otherwise abilities to get away from it.
And what good is TWAS barking PULL UP, PULL UP with the display turning colors if a pilot is no longer aware of which way is up.
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Old 31st Jan 2020, 20:23
  #382 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by henra View Post
Honest question: Do you see any indication in this pattern (from level flight to -5000fpm at 150kts+ in 15s) which would indicate anything else other than LOC (in the extended sense that it was not so much a mechanical loss of control but a loss of spatial orientation, aka incipient 'Graveyard Spiral')?
Yeah LOC is most likely IMHO. I am not as convinced as some on the CFIT narrative. Flying instruments is not that tricky given wx was anticipated, entry was at stable cruise and he had a good attentive scan to gain IMC rating. Didn't we all fly IMC in the pea soup as a teenager using steam gauges. Caveat is I am a fixed winger, is it a world of difference in a rotary?
The CFIT case is hard to imagine, choosing a descent into worse fog and mountains being the preferred option over a climb into relative safety and staying ahead of the a/c. In extremis the PF is at one with their equipment, game face is on and social factors are not even on the radar.
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Old 31st Jan 2020, 21:08
  #383 (permalink)  

Avoid imitations
 
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The point about having TAWS is that having to deal with constant warnings from it might have persuaded the pilot to turn back somewhat earlier. Obviously, if you have lost control of the aircraft it would be just one extra distraction to deal with.

The aircraft I fly has it but it really is only of use in the cruise, as a cross check of my adequate terrain clearance planning. It sometimes becomes a nuisance when landing at off airport sites. There is no “pull up” audio warning on it, btw.
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Old 31st Jan 2020, 21:43
  #384 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bryancobb View Post
OMGGGG! And you can do that at 150kts headed straight into a funnel where rising terrain converges up to the cloud bases and you know there's Earth in the cloud ahead that you are about to climb into???? All while unexpectedly having to quickly establish a crosscheck and swap from eyes outside to instruments. SMH
Even better at 150 kts, a zoom climb would have you rocketing up well over 3500 fpm. This was an emergency situation because there was no other option. Reports now that one of the pilot's former colleagues has stated the accident pilot had an IR but he'd never flown in cloud before. Which is possible in FAA land.
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Old 31st Jan 2020, 21:51
  #385 (permalink)  
 
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Why not fly IFR

Originally Posted by FIRESYSOK View Post
Any helo drivers care to advise why it would be- barring major airport airspace complications- not common practice to file an IFR flight plan and cruise at say, 5000’ or so, well clear of terrain? Then cancel the IFR and land visually at the destination? I never understood running scuds if it weren’t entirely, positively necessary.
Expediency would be the main factor. Flying IFR would have delayed departure and required additional routing. JMHO
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Old 31st Jan 2020, 22:03
  #386 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
The point about having TAWS is that having to deal with constant warnings from it might have persuaded the pilot to turn back somewhat earlier. Obviously, if you have lost control of the aircraft it would be just one extra distraction to deal with.

The aircraft I fly has it but it really is only of use in the cruise, as a cross check of my adequate terrain clearance planning. It sometimes becomes a nuisance when landing at off airport sites. There is no “pull up” audio warning on it, btw.
and here's the problem. The TAWS would have been screaming at every turn on that trip and the pilot would have likely disabled the distracting audio, thus making it pretty much useless right up until impact. The TAWS doesn't know if you can't see where you're going.
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Old 31st Jan 2020, 22:21
  #387 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by IflyIFR View Post
Expediency would be the main factor. Flying IFR would have delayed departure and required additional routing. JMHO
Yes. And also, there were articles that interviewed several pilots at various helicopter charters in LA. They said none of the charters in the area are certified for IFR, because they don't need it. Usually the weather is good, and certification costs more. In the rare case the weather is bad, they just don't fly.
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Old 31st Jan 2020, 22:30
  #388 (permalink)  
 
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Salute!

Two things.....

Murphy made a comment that I cannot find/recall associated with a post I made...... but I can stand to be corrected, and I fully unnerstan some folks with a small bladder and associated biological needs. Maybe someone else mentioned the "bucket" need, but I don't think it was me!
Another thought was triggered by Gums comment about passengers needing a bucket after the circling hold, is it possible that a passenger did something very distracting
I return to the CFIT and IIMC aspects of this tragedy, and my personal plan B was to fly st ahead and climb unless very familiar with the terrain nearby.

Gums sends...
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Old 31st Jan 2020, 22:43
  #389 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gums View Post
Murphy made a comment that I cannot find/recall associated with a post I made...... but I can stand to be corrected, and I fully unnerstan some folks with a small bladder and associated biological needs. Maybe someone else mentioned the "bucket" need, but I don't think it was me!
It was Indelible Spirit.

Originally Posted by Indelible Spirit View Post
Not to mention holding for 15 minutes flying in circles. I think most passengers would have needed a bucket!

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Old 31st Jan 2020, 22:57
  #390 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Sir Korsky View Post
and here's the problem. The TAWS would have been screaming at every turn on that trip and the pilot would have likely disabled the distracting audio, thus making it pretty much useless right up until impact. The TAWS doesn't know if you can't see where you're going.
If the aircraft was equipped with a TAWS with a “screaming audio”; as I wrote, not all do so. The system on the type I fly freezes the nav display until cancelled, which is a bit of a hint that it might be time to go to plan B.
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Old 31st Jan 2020, 23:13
  #391 (permalink)  
 
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One can assume the pilot checked departure and arrival station wx and forecasts, and possibly KBUR and KVNY. However, in this type of operation, there is no accurate method of checking conditions along your entire route. Unlike IFR operations, enroute wx and hazards don't appear to get much attention. Had he been aware of the enroute wx, should he have even attempted the flight? Or, should he have pressed on as far as he could, which he apparently did, resulting in being forced to make some hasty last minute decisions? I've always felt VFR operations provide the operator with an abundance of ways to get into trouble.

In light of this tragedy, I would hope that clients of this type of operation attempt to educate themselves as to the potential hazards associated with marginal VFR operations.
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Old 31st Jan 2020, 23:15
  #392 (permalink)  
 
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Please continue the "healthy" discussion and continue to be respectful, lest we forget, there is a human side to this.

Please don't ask----I cannot comment for obvious reasons. And maybe lighten up a bit on SASless for some of his "moderation" earlier...

RIP Ara, my best friend:


Last edited by Gordy; 1st Feb 2020 at 05:40.
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Old 31st Jan 2020, 23:43
  #393 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by xcitation View Post
Yeah LOC is most likely IMHO. I am not as convinced as some on the CFIT narrative. Flying instruments is not that tricky given wx was anticipated, entry was at stable cruise and he had a good attentive scan to gain IMC rating. Didn't we all fly IMC in the pea soup as a teenager using steam gauges. Caveat is I am a fixed winger, is it a world of difference in a rotary?.
It depends on the helicopter and how some of the cockpit switches are set if control augmentation is available. An airplane in general, if in trim and you use the rudder pedals to keep the wings level, keeps going where you intended it to go. Worst-case helicopters, those with no helpers like SAS or autopilot functions engaged, require full time attention in yaw, pitch, and roll. If everything is working and appropriately set, the S-76 is a best-case helicopter.
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Old 1st Feb 2020, 07:10
  #394 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51332546

Island Express Helicopters was restricted to flying under what are known as visual flight rules, meaning pilots must be able to see clearly outside the aircraft in daylight, Keith Holloway, a National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) spokesman, told the Reuters news agency.
I'm not sure I understand what they mean by this. Do commercial operators in the US require a specific license (or training?) for their instrument-rated pilots to fly in IFR conditions?
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Old 1st Feb 2020, 07:30
  #395 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bell_ringer View Post
It may seem like semantics, but if the aircraft is going in a different direction to which you intended, then it’s LOC, no matter how firmly you are attached to the levers.
The ICAO usage is exactly that (www.icao.int pdf):
Loss of aircraft control while or deviation from intended flightpath inflight . (LOC-I: Loss of control - inflight)
Loss of control inflight is an extreme manifestation of a deviation from intended flightpath.
The usage notes explicitly include pilot-induced oscillations and practice autorotation.
CFIT is more of an "wasn't aware there was terrain in the way" kind of thing.

I found this interesting:
Unintended flight in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) (UIMC: Unintended flight in IMC)

Usage Notes:
• May be used as a precursor to CFIT, LOC-I or LALT.
• Applicable if the pilot was flying according to Visual Flight Rules (VFR), as defined in Annex 2 – Rules of the Air – to the Convention on International Civil Aviation and by any reason found oneself inadvertently in IMC
• Only to be used when loss of visual references is encountered,
Only to be used if pilot not qualified to fly in IMC and/or aircraft not equipped to fly in IMC
Ms Homendy mentioned that the NTSB would be looking into whether the IFR equipment in the helicopter was servicable. If it was, and since the pilot was IFR-rated, this would technically fail to qualify as an UIMC occurence.
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Old 1st Feb 2020, 09:35
  #396 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by henra View Post
Honest question: Do you see any indication in this pattern (from level flight to -5000fpm at 150kts+ in 15s) which would indicate anything else other than LOC (in the extended sense that it was not so much a mechanical loss of control but a loss of spatial orientation, aka incipient 'Graveyard Spiral')?
I can share your thoughts... the interesting question is why? But there will be lot of factors: flight planning, commercial pressure, IFR certification for the operator, pilot’s recency for IFR flight with that type etc. E.g. Most of the pilots have done a minor mistake that HDG bug is not straight forward, when they select HDG mode... and even notify that kind of thing after entering Adhoc IMC and correct it with that speed/altitude combination during SP Ops... It might be very challenging... and cause confusion...
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Old 1st Feb 2020, 09:37
  #397 (permalink)  
 
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VFR flight entering into IMC when unintended, unexpected and undesired, is one of the most challenging situations any pilot can face. Perhaps particularly in a helicopter? Preceding that with extensive manoeuvring and speed changes means the inner ear will likely give you a very bad case of the leans.

Having at some previous point held a ticket to prepare and then fly on instruments ‘under the hood’ (possibly on a totally different helicopter?) is of limited value I’m afraid.

There is absolutely no substitute for continuous regular IFR training in the actual aircraft. But if the operator thinks flight on instruments is not required for their operation, who will pay for the pilot’s training. Even if the pilot understands the requirement?

IF this proves to be unsuccessful unplanned entry into IMC whilst attempting to maintain visual contact with the ground, it will merely be the most recent in a long, long, long list of similar accidents.

It’s an insidious, and utterly unnecessary chain of events.

How tragically sad for all involved. I am so very sorry.
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Old 1st Feb 2020, 12:12
  #398 (permalink)  
 
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Folks.....don't get ahead of the facts in your comments.

Do not take for gospel. what you are reading in the media and for sure not here at Rotor Heads when you address this particular tragedy.

As in everyone of these events....it takes a long time for the actual facts and data to be ascertained and published.

If you are going to pontificate at least take the time to carefully consider separating the wheat from the chaff in that regard.

Until you know without any doubt whatsoever the accuracy of the information you are basing your opinion upon....remember you are just speculating, supposing, surmising, or just plain flat assed guessing as to what happened.

Discussing this is fine but be reasonable in how you go about it....some of you seem to skip off into fantasy land without giving scant consideration to the known "facts" which are pretty thin at this time.

All of the information so far comes from sources outside the cockpit.....think about that for a bit.

No matter how much we learn....it will not be from inside the cockpit....we will never know what the Pilot could see, what he was experiencing, what he was thinking, and probably never know with certainty what he did during the final moments of that flight.

We can combine all of the known data and other evidence to begin to get a good idea but probably we will never really know.

Let's start with the latest road some of you are traveling.

What do you know for a fact about the Pilot's Instrument flying qualifications, training, experience, currency, and proficiency at the time of crash?

Lay it out and quote your source(s) for that information.

If You want to describe him as being incompetent.....PROVE IT!

Back up what you are saying.....do so with proven and ascertainable fact.....or amend your posts to note your opinion is pure speculation.


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Old 1st Feb 2020, 12:14
  #399 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Spunk View Post
Witness on Liveleak

https://youtu.be/28QYy8lrww8

As described by Expecting2fly

The description of the micro climate and the wx situation comes at the end of the video.
This doorbel video cam audio eerily checks out with the witness description of the final moments and abrupt end. Tough listen.


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Old 1st Feb 2020, 12:40
  #400 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Musician View Post
...
Only to be used if pilot not qualified to fly in IMC and/or aircraft not equipped to fly in IMC

Ms Homendy mentioned that the NTSB would be looking into whether the IFR equipment in the helicopter was servicable. If it was, and since the pilot was IFR-rated, this would technically fail to qualify as an UIMC occurence.
I think not meeting currency requirements would fall into the not qualified category.
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