This ride's a bit low, don't you think?
Ride concessions can be and are done safely all of the time. Other professionals, including regulators and underwriters, agree that this is so.
Given previous jobs I have had, I have a high appetite for risk when that risk is justified - making a few bucks isn't that justification in my book - your sliding scale of 'right' would have to be at one end of my arc of tolerance for fare-paying pax but is probably closer to what I would accept for troop carriage in a conflict scenario.
There are plenty of us here with a wide experience of helicopter usage (and abusage) and have had to justify our risk-taking against duty of care to crew and pax rather than duty of care to profit margins.
Do they normally do these flights without headsets for pax.
Hard to communicate with pax and not too good for their hearing either.
Hi Static source, you certainly would not have let me away with this kind of flying..
R
Hard to communicate with pax and not too good for their hearing either.
Hi Static source, you certainly would not have let me away with this kind of flying..
R
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Obviously some folks don't. The op's around here do. It is stupid not to from pretty much any perspective you care to name: health (hearing protection), safety (instructions to passengers) and just sheer enjoyment (everyone can talk to each other). If the pax get too loud there are buttons and knobs to take care of that on the audio panel. The only downside is wear and tear on the headsets.
Not very hygienic either!
aa777888 I agree re button on panel I often found with young passengers
they were so excited to have a mic and headphones they couldn’t help themselves
so they did get muted occasionally.
they were so excited to have a mic and headphones they couldn’t help themselves
so they did get muted occasionally.
For these mini-short rides, take the mics off the headsets. They can still listen to the pilot, but the pilot isn't distracted by the kids saying "Hello! Can you hear me? CAN YOU HEAR ME??"
Hygiene takes a very poor second place to safety. They can share their nits and they can hear the instructions to stay alive.
Hygiene takes a very poor second place to safety. They can share their nits and they can hear the instructions to stay alive.
This thread showcases the best and worst of pprune.
An interesting topic and video is posted, followed by commentary on a spectrum from the doom merchants to the ‘nothing to see here folks’; the know-nothings and the much worse know-a-little types.
Occasionally some erudite soul will turn up (eg. aa777888) and cast some actual knowledge and experience to those interested in the topic at hand; inevitably he/she is attacked by nit-picking pedants determined to win some personal pissing competition.
These forums are a bit like life - the trick is to find people worth listening to, and ignore the rest.
An interesting topic and video is posted, followed by commentary on a spectrum from the doom merchants to the ‘nothing to see here folks’; the know-nothings and the much worse know-a-little types.
Occasionally some erudite soul will turn up (eg. aa777888) and cast some actual knowledge and experience to those interested in the topic at hand; inevitably he/she is attacked by nit-picking pedants determined to win some personal pissing competition.
These forums are a bit like life - the trick is to find people worth listening to, and ignore the rest.
So nobody can have an opinion who doesn't agree with you ? Perhaps you like living in an echo chamber, the real problem with social media nowadays.
If you can't acknowledge input from Professional Pilots then don't come to PPRUNE. If you can't acknowledge the safety points made about the video then re-read them.
There is a great deal more to helicopter operations than giving rides at a fair.
If you can't acknowledge input from Professional Pilots then don't come to PPRUNE. If you can't acknowledge the safety points made about the video then re-read them.
There is a great deal more to helicopter operations than giving rides at a fair.
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But only if the customers are fully informed about your two first points and choose to take the risk (and I Don't speak about the family in the car hit by the helicopter).
.
Sorry, you guys are all correct. It's stupid to pay attention to the details, to maximize revenue safely, to actually run a business and all that sort of thing. Oh, wait, I forgot, it's PPRUNE 
Not sure what you mean by "direct operating cost", but the actual cost before profit of a busy R44 (one that is flying at least 500 hours a year) is about $250/hr. It's probably up a little given the recent 20-50% increases in insurance cost in the US this year.
Not sure what you mean by "direct operating cost", but the actual cost before profit of a busy R44 (one that is flying at least 500 hours a year) is about $250/hr. It's probably up a little given the recent 20-50% increases in insurance cost in the US this year.
And:
Think of it more like ag work, except you are heavy when you return also. The spots are typically tight and require more attention than an easy day going in and out of 80 acre fields or paved runways. Is it super-challenging for a properly trained commercial pilot? No.
Second bit: Ever heard of complacency? You know the thing that happens to everyone else?!
JustinHaywood,
Occasionally some erudite soul will turn up (eg. aa777888) and cast some actual knowledge and experience to those interested in the topic at hand; inevitably he/she is attacked by nit-picking pedants determined to win some personal pissing competition.
https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/05/dad-7...lades-9122181/
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2013/...ious-injuries/
https://abcnews.go.com/US/injured-he...ry?id=65933174
Now, these are just a few examples.
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And for what its worth I think that JustinHeywood made some wry commentary and observation on this thread which I think should be taken as just that.
H 'n' H will be viewed as one of those highlighted in the quote above then, probably the 3rd!!!! 
Joking aside, I found aa777888's input fascinating as I've never been professionally involved in that aspect of helo ops - apart from a ride in an Alouette at a showground when I was 9 and a similar flight in a Jet Ranger when I was 49 (or something like that!) at an airday. I was fascinated in the Jet Ranger flight to watch how it was operated/routed as, by then, I had been involved in RW aviation for 3 decades and had a FW CPL/IR. I'd also met my Robbo pal by then! I can now add a further decade of FW aviation to that - now, sadly, medically brought to an end! But I also see [email protected]'s viewpoint - but our backgrounds are probably similar in terms of risk and when we would go for it.
Trust me, my personal view is that I'd not partake in the flight exhibited in the video. Why? Because it scares me! Is that sort of flying killing lots of people? No, it isn't. Would there be time to sort out a problem if it developed? Doesn't seem that way to me - that's my view! Could that sort of business be operated differently and still make money? Probably not and, as aa777888 says, "Ride concessions can be and are done safely all of the time. Other professionals, including regulators and underwriters, agree that this is so." so I'd not suggest ending them. It's just not for me!
Could you guys who do such work for living assess that vid and draw some conclusions for your own decision-making in the future? Maybe hearing someone like me go "WTF?" might cause someone to go "Hell, I've been doing this for 25 years, looks OK to me .... but, hey, I'll just watch that Vid again and see what that plonker (me, H 'n' H) is on about"! A friend of mine died on a low level Navex flying a route he'd instructed on several times. His complacency meant he was 6 ft lower than normal at one point ... 1 really special bloke (and his student) gone in an instant!
Why was he extra-special? A few years previously, as an Engineer, I'd asked him to stop flying a certain legal flight manoeuvre which I know he enjoyed (and it "looked good", I'll give him that!) but was potentially not helping some long-term structural issues we were having. Instead of bawling me out he agreed he'd not actually looked at it that way ... and he never did it again ..... well, bless him, not while he was in sight of me! Had he/his crew/pax been under fire I'd have expected him to fly that way - and more - to get 'em home safely - sod the long-term structural issues!
Anyway, that's my humble contribution .... and H 'n' H will crawl back under his rock! Till next time that is! You know, I think I'll go and have a beer - in memory of the 2 guys on that fateful Navex - may they RIP!
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On a more general note: it is easy to single out almost any particular type of operation for nit picking. One can easily compile a lengthy list of any type of operation gone bad: rides, tours, mustering, ag, corporate, pleasure, VIP, utility, military--you name it. Accidents (most should really be called "negligents") happen in every type and genre of operation.
Also, people are comfortable with what they know. Those who grew up flying nothing but turbines, and then went right into multi-engine IFR op's with very rigidly defined SOPs, are understandably uncomfortable if not outright horrified at someone jumping into an inexpensive single engine piston machine and performing some task without a large manual of rules and regulations, a high inertia rotor system, and a turbine. Similarly, those who started life in a piston single can't understand why anyone would see what they do as so risky. Familiarity may breed contempt, but un-familiarity can also breed another kind of contempt.
People on PPRuNe are apt to draw a line in the sky between what they find "acceptable" and "unacceptable" based on a combination of real facts, perceptions (which are not facts), experience, and their own risk tolerance. Most of the hot buttons are easy to identify because they do indeed involve additional risks: mustering, lightweight piston singles (mostly Robinson helicopters), rides, tours, night VFR, single engine IFR--I'm probably missing a few. And yet if you start mining accident databases you find that things are not as bad as you think.
At any rate, to paraphrase a famous novel, "Some helicopter operations are more equal than others." Where you draw that line is up to you. If you draw it in public, as I sometimes do on PPRuNe, one must be willing to suffer the slings and arrows of others who draw it differently. Obviously I enjoy posting here. I learn a lot by having such conversations, and while I may get frustrated from time to time, so far it has not extended to keyboard rage
Cheers and blue skies!
Also, people are comfortable with what they know. Those who grew up flying nothing but turbines, and then went right into multi-engine IFR op's with very rigidly defined SOPs, are understandably uncomfortable if not outright horrified at someone jumping into an inexpensive single engine piston machine and performing some task without a large manual of rules and regulations, a high inertia rotor system, and a turbine. Similarly, those who started life in a piston single can't understand why anyone would see what they do as so risky. Familiarity may breed contempt, but un-familiarity can also breed another kind of contempt.
People on PPRuNe are apt to draw a line in the sky between what they find "acceptable" and "unacceptable" based on a combination of real facts, perceptions (which are not facts), experience, and their own risk tolerance. Most of the hot buttons are easy to identify because they do indeed involve additional risks: mustering, lightweight piston singles (mostly Robinson helicopters), rides, tours, night VFR, single engine IFR--I'm probably missing a few. And yet if you start mining accident databases you find that things are not as bad as you think.
At any rate, to paraphrase a famous novel, "Some helicopter operations are more equal than others." Where you draw that line is up to you. If you draw it in public, as I sometimes do on PPRuNe, one must be willing to suffer the slings and arrows of others who draw it differently. Obviously I enjoy posting here. I learn a lot by having such conversations, and while I may get frustrated from time to time, so far it has not extended to keyboard rage
Cheers and blue skies!
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aa777888 You seem very erudite, level-headed, knowledgeable, even-tempered and reasonable. Are you sure you're well suited to posting on Pprune? Seriously, thanks for the interesting insights.
aa777888 You seem very erudite, level-headed, knowledgeable, even-tempered and reasonable. Are you sure you're well suited to posting on Pprune? Seriously, thanks for the interesting insights.
MaxR, you most eloquently summed up my response to aa777888's last post! Truth is many of us have diverse backgrounds/experiences which all, strangely, end up with the same goal - transporting people safely from A to B without killing them, us or innocent bystanders - but, as aa777888 observes, those differences lead to our own bias/comfort zones. Tis the way it is! My respect for RW pilots is immense - my memory of the SAR we launched one night to escort a "sickie" 90+ miles back to "Mum" returning to "Mum", only now being escorted by the "sickie" as that was now "more S" than the SAR now was still haunts me! I was glad when that Watch ended!I've often wondered how one gets such opinionated views on here PPRuNe - and my view is this:- many/most of us have/had responsibility for that goal - often relying on split-second decisions to continue/go around or passing that job off as being good to go despite the 100's of maintenance steps, many of which were conducted in a workshop maybe 1000's of miles away when a component was serviced, and over which we had no control. Not many jobs out there where you need that ability, or rather the confidence, in being able to make those decisions - or to invite the wrath of management by calling "Time" to consider this or that.
To work in a profession where, as engineer or pilot, we could so easily kill, and yet we take it for granted - is something! Makes us all a bit odd really - but in the best way as, ultimately, whatever we do, the goal is exactly the same! And we should always question, or feel free to ask. How many things have come to light due to that "damn fool question" someone asked? On more than one occasion, a "throw-away" line alerted people to a problem. Upon such bricks, aviation thrives!
And, in all of this, you may gather, I do propose H 'n' H as being odder than most - why do you think I took on the name?!!!! As the saying goes "Suits you, Sir!"!
Stay safe one and all, whatever we get up to! Cheers, H 'n' H
H and H - sadly I think I know who you refer to in your comment about a friend dying on a navex with a student - he went through his QHI course in the early 90s when I was teaching on it.