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UH-1H missing from Coffs Harbour 6th Sept 2019

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UH-1H missing from Coffs Harbour 6th Sept 2019

Old 15th Oct 2019, 08:48
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by nigelh View Post
And there are strong doubts as to whether Mr Kerr was qualified to fly at night at all, even in clear weather, meaning he should have been on the ground at least 10 minutes before “last light”.
are

Are the rules different there as In EASA land last light is 30 mins after sunset ?
Officially night when the centre of the sun is 6 degrees below the horizon as I recall. Happy to be corrected as that may just be NZ
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 12:02
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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Last light was early that day, due lots of dust in the air covering the lights.
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 19:54
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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Autonomous - sunset is when the upper limb of the sun dips below the horizon - then you have civil twilight until it is 6 degrees below the horizon, then nautical twilight until it is 12 degrees below and finally astronomical twilight until it is 18 degrees below.

Night is usually defined as the end of civil twilight.
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 23:09
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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What a load of nonsense . How do I know what degrees it is !! I think you will find that for legal purposes VFR day stops 30 mins after the stated sunset in your area . Maybe I am wrong .....
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Old 16th Oct 2019, 00:41
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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Regardless of which night time rule you want to follow from reports and comments this flight had the opportunity to land but carried on, I wonder at what point others on board might have started having concerns?
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Old 16th Oct 2019, 00:55
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by nomorehelosforme View Post
Regardless of which night time rule you want to follow from reports and comments this flight had the opportunity to land but carried on, I wonder at what point others on board might have started having concerns?
It would appear from all the “evidence” that this flight was clearly illegal regards “flying at night”, and not even “close”. (EG would have been on the ground 5 min after LL)

Your comment about “others on board” strikes a chord: They were relying on a professional pilot to do the right thing and keep them safe. Most pax would have no idea about the risks associated with low visibility/loss of “horizon” situations.
It would appear the pilot shirked that responsibility, and let them down badly.

The “point” when the pax started “having concerns” - probably not until the pilot started swearing or screaming, or they were subjected to unusual G forces and “floating” against their harnesses.

Terrifying to think about.
Easily avoided.
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Old 16th Oct 2019, 01:25
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Twist & Shout View Post
It would appear from all the “evidence” that this flight was clearly illegal regards “flying at night”, and not even “close”. (EG would have been on the ground 5 min after LL)

Your comment about “others on board” strikes a chord: They were relying on a professional pilot to do the right thing and keep them safe. Most pax would have no idea about the risks associated with low visibility/loss of “horizon” situations.
It would appear the pilot shirked that responsibility, and let them down badly.

The “point” when the pax started “having concerns” - probably not until the pilot started swearing or screaming, or they were subjected to unusual G forces and “floating” against their harnesses.

Terrifying to think about.
Easily avoided.
Twist & Shout,

Agreed on many points, but according to the reports a couple on board were/or had purchased the aircraft so must assume some previous experience so possibly major concerns ...

As you said easily avoided, terrible for all.
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Old 16th Oct 2019, 03:49
  #128 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by nigelh View Post
What a load of nonsense . How do I know what degrees it is !! I think you will find that for legal purposes VFR day stops 30 mins after the stated sunset in your area . Maybe I am wrong .....

This accident happened in Australia, and as such Australian conventions for Last Light apply. Somewhat variable when compared to the UK since we have such a vast country and standard approximations just don't cut it. Before smart phones and apps there was a graph in the AIP which was used to calculate Last Light but these days most drivers either go to NAIPS or use apps such as OzRunways to get Last Light. The iPad in front of the UH-1 pilot would have undoubtedly had such a facility.

FWIW, NAIPS gives Last Light on the 6th September at Williamtown as 18:02 local, and sunset was 17:38 local.







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Old 16th Oct 2019, 04:49
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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The discussion about last light is interesting but in the case of VH-UVC's last flight probably not all that relevant. The accident aircraft left Coffs mid-afternoon for Bankstown. Under no circumstance was that flight not going to include flight under Night VFR. After last light and in at least 'challenging conditions' the opportunity to land at Williamtown presented itself and was passed over. The definition of last light and the rules relevant to Night VFR did not appear to be in any way a factor in the planing or execution of the flight.
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Old 16th Oct 2019, 07:11
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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What a load of nonsense . How do I know what degrees it is !! I think you will find that for legal purposes VFR day stops 30 mins after the stated sunset in your area . Maybe I am wrong ....
hardly nonsense Nigel, even if you are from Yorkshire - simply the definition of the events which happen at the end of every day. The 30 mins you refer to equates to the period between sunset and the end of civil twilight.

Education surely isn't a dirty word, even oop North
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Old 16th Oct 2019, 07:15
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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And this is from the CASA documents definitions page where 'last light' doesn't exist
Night - That period of time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight.
Can you guess what the definition of day is yet???
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Old 16th Oct 2019, 07:35
  #132 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by MickG0105 View Post
The discussion about last light is interesting but in the case of VH-UVC's last flight probably not all that relevant. The accident aircraft left Coffs mid-afternoon for Bankstown. Under no circumstance was that flight not going to include flight under Night VFR. After last light and in at least 'challenging conditions' the opportunity to land at Williamtown presented itself and was passed over. The definition of last light and the rules relevant to Night VFR did not appear to be in any way a factor in the planing or execution of the flight.
Yes, but it's so much fun casting a bit of burley into the waters and seeing what comes rising to the bait

How about this, the 'old' AIP manual technique: part of the exam IIRC?

https://vfrg.casa.gov.au/pre-flight-...-and-darkness/
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Old 16th Oct 2019, 07:39
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by nomorehelosforme View Post


Twist & Shout,

Agreed on many points, but according to the reports a couple on board were/or had purchased the aircraft so must assume some previous experience so possibly major concerns ...

As you said easily avoided, terrible for all.
Excellent, and slightly “sobering” point.
The Pax might have had major concerns for much longer than my initial thoughts - discounted the possible experience of some pax.
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Old 16th Oct 2019, 08:07
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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The point I was really making was that in the UK at least we take 30 min as being the average time between the two .... which even is easy for a Crab to work out . Trying to determine degrees off the horizon etc is not always that simple especially if you are in a valley in Yorkshire.... however I agree it is irrelevant!
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Old 16th Oct 2019, 08:14
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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‘Night’ is that period between the end of the evening civil twilight and the beginning of the morning civil twilight. For all intents and purposes, first light should be construed as the beginning of civil twilight and last light as the end of civil twilight. The terms ‘sunrise’ and ‘sunset’ have no relevance when calculating daylight operating times for the VFR pilot.
So instead of using a simple event that is clearly defined you have to go through a series of calculations to get an extra couple of minutes at each end of the day using terms that are not officially defined?
Way to go...
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Old 16th Oct 2019, 09:15
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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By the level of interest generated in last light calculations maybe a separate topic is warranted where definitions from various jurisdictions can be compared & debated?
On the subject of the accident in question, at the time the aircraft was reported missing I was talking to a friend on the phone who lives in Newcastle. He told me that there was a search underway so I opened the BOM website radar & had a look, there was a definite band of heavy showers oriented approximately North/South moving out to sea off the coast of Newcastle.
Even if it was still "daylight" (which it wasn't), over water in showers with fading or no light would have made it difficult to remain VFR, as mentioned several times previously. The reasons behind the decision to turn left instead of land may never be known, but I hope that the "holes in the cheese" which lined up & led to this decision are determined as it might help the rest of us avoid a similar fate.
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Old 16th Oct 2019, 09:56
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe the pilot had a heart attack and collapsed. The other occupants, having either no experience in piloting the Huey, or at night, lost control and it crashed.
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Old 16th Oct 2019, 12:27
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by John Eacott View Post
Yes, but it's so much fun casting a bit of burley into the waters and seeing what comes rising to the bait
Oh, yes, isn't it just. Dualing jurisdictions playing the my definition is better than yours game.

When it comes down to brass tacks, we can probably thank ICAO (let's blame them, they haven't been mentioned yet):

ICAO definition found in Annex 6 Part I:

Night. The hours between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight or such other period between sunset and sunrise, as may be prescribed by the appropriate authority. Note.— Civil twilight ends in the evening when the centre of the sun’s disc is 6 degrees below the horizon and begins in the morning when the centre of the sun’s disc is 6 degrees below the horizon.
And as for the all conquering, crystal clear, never to be misinterpreted Pommie definition,

CAP 393

“Night” means the time from half an hour after sunset until half an hour before sunrise (both times inclusive), sunset and sunrise being determined at surface level;
Sunrise and sunset, of course, aren't defined. Civil, nautical, astronomical? ICAO at least define it.

What's next? Angels on the head of a pin?
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Old 16th Oct 2019, 12:51
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe add a reading to this precision instrument:

Can't see it ... Night
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Old 16th Oct 2019, 17:20
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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Some people seem very sensitive about having their precious CASA questioned - I thought Aussie were supposed to be thick skinned and laid-back

Sunrise and sunset, of course, aren't defined. Civil, nautical, astronomical? ICAO at least define it.
don't go confusing sunset/sunrise with the 3 varieties of twilight
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