Encoding Altimeter rip-off for the Agusta A109E
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,687
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From: Australia
Encoding Altimeter rip-off for the Agusta A109E
It appears my encoding altimeter is faulty and the aircraft manufacturer requires USD $31,000 (AUD $43,152) plus GST to replace the unit. I understand I can get the unit serviced by the instrument manufacturer for AUD $22,584.96 plus GST, plus the cost of return freight to Europe.
All of these amounts are crazy. If I had Garmin equipment fitted I think it is about a $3,000 maximum rate to get a unit fixed.
Does anyone on this thread have any ideas of where I might be able to buy an exchange unit or get the unit serviced at a reasonable price?
I already have the copilot’s attitude indicator blanked off because Rogerson Kratos wanted over $70,000 for a repair – which could have been for a ten cent resistor – and I would rather sell my aircraft and just keep my beautiful LongRanger rather than being ripped off.
What do others think?
All of these amounts are crazy. If I had Garmin equipment fitted I think it is about a $3,000 maximum rate to get a unit fixed.
Does anyone on this thread have any ideas of where I might be able to buy an exchange unit or get the unit serviced at a reasonable price?
I already have the copilot’s attitude indicator blanked off because Rogerson Kratos wanted over $70,000 for a repair – which could have been for a ten cent resistor – and I would rather sell my aircraft and just keep my beautiful LongRanger rather than being ripped off.
What do others think?
Last edited by Dick Smith; 3rd September 2018 at 01:27.
Joined: Sep 2002
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
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From: Great South East, tired and retired
If you sell it with those items blanked off, will you lose more than the cost of getting them fixed?
The prices for avionics are ridiculous, always have been. It was cheaper to put glass screens into the B206 fleet to make them IFR than to fit steam gauges and overhaul them on a regular basis.
The prices for avionics are ridiculous, always have been. It was cheaper to put glass screens into the B206 fleet to make them IFR than to fit steam gauges and overhaul them on a regular basis.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,687
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From: Australia
Then surely there must be a lot secondhand steam instruments available at rock bottom prices?
I can can easily afford the repairs by donating less to important causes but I would prefer not to kowtow to these rip off merchants.
I can can easily afford the repairs by donating less to important causes but I would prefer not to kowtow to these rip off merchants.
Joined: Jan 2009
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From: no comment ;)
Do not know about your local avionic paperwork needed, but recently we done facelift of one old fix wing airframe with:
G5+G5+GNS750+GMU11+GAD29B+TT31
Now altitude encoding goes
-over RS232 from G5 to TT31 with full ADSB out
-over CANBus to GAD and than via Airinc 429 to GNS750
Total cost level of $30 k USD
G5+G5+GNS750+GMU11+GAD29B+TT31
Now altitude encoding goes
-over RS232 from G5 to TT31 with full ADSB out
-over CANBus to GAD and than via Airinc 429 to GNS750
Total cost level of $30 k USD
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 156
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From: europe
Joined: Sep 2002
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 4,721
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From: Great South East, tired and retired
Arketip, what was the point of that comment?
Dick wants to enjoy aviation. He is also a philanthropist of the highest order. To pay for the mods, he would be giving less to charities. So he is looking for a cheaper alternative.
Dick wants to enjoy aviation. He is also a philanthropist of the highest order. To pay for the mods, he would be giving less to charities. So he is looking for a cheaper alternative.
Chief Bottle Washer
Joined: Sep 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: PPRuNe
That’s an unworthy comment given Dick’s well known philanthropy 
Dick Smith donates the proceeds of his Cessna CJ3 Citation to charity.
Dick Smith donates the proceeds of his Cessna CJ3 Citation to charity.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,687
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From: Australia
Arketip. My concern about the ripp off cost is not for me personally.
I am concerned for the very viability of our industry throughout the world.
I want to see the world helicopter industry thrive. It won’t with these service costs!
I am concerned for the very viability of our industry throughout the world.
I want to see the world helicopter industry thrive. It won’t with these service costs!
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
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From: Downeast
If you sell it with those items blanked off, will you lose more than the cost of getting them fixed?
At the prices being quoted for the items needing repair....it would seem a full panel re-do with current state of the art kit would be worth considering.
Sometimes you just have to kick in a bit more money but have a far better outcome.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 642
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From: daworld
I looked at STC'ing (is that a word?) a complete flight deck for the 109E/S complete with digital autopilot, in partnership with a major avionics installer with EASA/FAA/TCCA certification.
He warned me it wouldn't be cheap. The parts came out at just under CAD$200k.
Plus SPIFR certification. For a market of less than 1000 helicopters. How many of you would be prepared to pay that much for better kit, fully certified? And yes we looked at Garmin too. G1000H at that time was not available to aftermarket, only OEM and Garmin didn't have anything else that was IFR capable for helicopters. Even the new G500H touch screen is 24k per screen and that is just for the screen, not for any of the adapters or other boxes to let it talk to anything else on your machine.
They know how small the market is. And it just isn't worth the hassle for them sometimes.
They also aren't as cheap as you would hope. I have personal experience with replacing the data card for the G1000H after the file was corrupted. The data card is needed for any software updates. Garmin were only too happy to supply a new USB stick with the file on it. For US$34,000.00. For a file. That they don't have to write specially. Just an off the shelf file.
And yet Garmin are eons ahead of Kratos for Customer Service!!!!
I'm still pushing for an STC with an avionic OEM (Astronautics) for the 109E/S to replace the Kratos screens. They're in final testing but it likely won't be certified till Q4/18 or Q1/19.
I feel your pain Dick and we've spoken many times about options. OEM's like Agusta/Bell/Airbus are contractually bound to purchase their avionics from the OEM. They can't shop around. But you can.
To a point. If you install an altimeter that is not listed on the Type Cert, you lose your IFR capability. Unless you submit a mod.
So gullibell, that is a nice altimeter there but you can't install it into a 109. Is it even the right size? 109 instruments are not 3 1/8 inch, they're 2 1/4 inch which makes them even MORE expensive.
The best advice I can give Dick, is let your fingers do the walking. Try these guys. They have feeds from many different sources.
https://www.avspares.com/parts/search?parts=3A432220F05
Good luck!
He warned me it wouldn't be cheap. The parts came out at just under CAD$200k.
Plus SPIFR certification. For a market of less than 1000 helicopters. How many of you would be prepared to pay that much for better kit, fully certified? And yes we looked at Garmin too. G1000H at that time was not available to aftermarket, only OEM and Garmin didn't have anything else that was IFR capable for helicopters. Even the new G500H touch screen is 24k per screen and that is just for the screen, not for any of the adapters or other boxes to let it talk to anything else on your machine.
They know how small the market is. And it just isn't worth the hassle for them sometimes.
They also aren't as cheap as you would hope. I have personal experience with replacing the data card for the G1000H after the file was corrupted. The data card is needed for any software updates. Garmin were only too happy to supply a new USB stick with the file on it. For US$34,000.00. For a file. That they don't have to write specially. Just an off the shelf file.
And yet Garmin are eons ahead of Kratos for Customer Service!!!!
I'm still pushing for an STC with an avionic OEM (Astronautics) for the 109E/S to replace the Kratos screens. They're in final testing but it likely won't be certified till Q4/18 or Q1/19.
I feel your pain Dick and we've spoken many times about options. OEM's like Agusta/Bell/Airbus are contractually bound to purchase their avionics from the OEM. They can't shop around. But you can.
To a point. If you install an altimeter that is not listed on the Type Cert, you lose your IFR capability. Unless you submit a mod.
So gullibell, that is a nice altimeter there but you can't install it into a 109. Is it even the right size? 109 instruments are not 3 1/8 inch, they're 2 1/4 inch which makes them even MORE expensive.
The best advice I can give Dick, is let your fingers do the walking. Try these guys. They have feeds from many different sources.
https://www.avspares.com/parts/search?parts=3A432220F05
Good luck!
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,687
Likes: 254
From: Australia
Thanks everyone for your assistance. The part number I am looking for is 3A67.32.20F.05.1.KR manufactured by Thommen Aircraft Equipment.
Last edited by Dick Smith; 5th September 2018 at 00:47.
Joined: Jan 2009
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From: no comment ;)
Regarding G5
https://static.garmin.com/pumac/AML-SA01818WI_1710.pdf
https://static.garmin.com/pumac/EASA_10060846_01.pdf
Certification basis is FAR 23
therefore not, at the moment.
One limitation may be the fact that is not possible to adjust zero angle of artificial horizon during the fly,
with non certified G5 that is possible
https://static.garmin.com/pumac/AML-SA01818WI_1710.pdf
https://static.garmin.com/pumac/EASA_10060846_01.pdf
Certification basis is FAR 23
therefore not, at the moment.
One limitation may be the fact that is not possible to adjust zero angle of artificial horizon during the fly,
with non certified G5 that is possible
Joined: Oct 2006
Aviation Qualifications: A&P
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From: USA
3A67.32.20F.05.1.KR - Precision Aviation Group
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 382
Likes: 15
From: Out there
Just saw this on the vertical site Dick and wondered if it may be of use https://www.verticalmag.com/press-re...ests-on-a-109/