Eurocopter crash off Queensland north coast
According to this article, floats were activated after water contact but the helo eventually sank.
Whitsunday helicopter crash: Retrieving wreckage may take weeks, authorities say - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
I read elsewhere that after the ditching the pilot helped passengers to escape. An awful experience for all involved.
Whitsunday helicopter crash: Retrieving wreckage may take weeks, authorities say - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
I read elsewhere that after the ditching the pilot helped passengers to escape. An awful experience for all involved.
One lesson to be learned from the NYC ditching is that a pilot may survive and later be seen walking unaided, but yet be unable to save the lives of any of his passengers. We do not yet know if he released two of the passengers, we do know that despite his best efforts and those of the marine crews first on scene, three remained in the door-less cabin for one hour until released by divers.
For anyone to extract themselves they must be concious.
In helicopters, unlike cars, there are no airbags and a crushing disrespect by the industry, for reducing head trauma, through the use of interior padding.
Yes, provision of helmets to charter passengers is problematic.
I propose that we can work towards the following common sense regime, for all pilots whom carry passengers over water:
1/ Pilots wear flight helmets
2/ In water below X degrees C, pilot to wear an immersion suit or similar to reduce effects of cold shock.
2/ be Huet practiced including the use of spare air.
3/ undergo training to rescue passengers from an inverted helicopter.
The ditching of the Bell, in Queensland a few years ago during aerial filming, resulted in incomplete inversion. We should not rely on floats to save the day.
In respect to the above helping affecting a successful extraction of passengers, it follows that the one size size fits all scenarios life raft may not be the best solution for a pilot to prevent incable passengers from drowning after egress.
Ditto the life vest in a pouch that requires the wearer to be conscious and have full use of both arms to be properly fitted.
Improvements would be:
1/ passenger life vests that require no additional donning in an emergency. So a survivor can assist the unconscious by inflating the vest of others.
2/ rethink use of life rafts that have primarily designed for survival from boating accidents where survivors are able bodied and uninjured. Also consider the use of life mats, similar to those towed behind the jet skis used by life guards. Such mats could be a missing link in the chain of survival.
3/ Create a lower level safety standard of head protection for charter passengers. What is the point of a safety standard if it is not practical or commercially viable to be adopted?
This would encourage design of a cheap helmet, for instance, a semi disposable polystyrene cap that can be worn with existing David Clarke headsets. (Helmets are turn off for some passengers but a turn on for the thrill seekers)
4/ In all large cities where a body of water is the likely emergency landing area (London and Sydney for instance) rescue services should train specifically for rescue of passengers in a floating inverted helicopter.
Despite training and assistance of others and albeit in very cold water and with a 5 knot current it (reportedly) took two divers 40-60 minutes to recover three of the victims in NYC.
This should be a reminder for both those whom legislate and those whom engage in flight over water of the difficulty in extracting the unconcious, even when all the doors are removed.
Are the commercial costs of engaging the above too onerous compared to the loss of business?
Surely charter work is being chipped away at the irretrievable loss of confidence some members of the public have when they read of passengers drowning?
Exacerbated in recent time by numerous events and their aftermaths being filmed on social media?
For example, how many more helicopters sold and joy rides taken if R44 fuel tanks had been more crashworthy a decade earlier?
Any studies on the public’s level of confidence in helicopters? Is it declining?
In the rotary world, safety agencies are at least adept at counting the dead.
As for pilots I have sympathy. For an aerial shoot, I once asked for an immersion suit for two, twenty minute duration transits across very cold water in a helicopter without floats.
On the day, pilot said that no immersion suit was forthcoming for either he or myself.
After the gig the pilot later told me he had an immersion suit in the boot of his car, but decided not to wear it when he realised I was a bit pissed off!
The reasons for his decision were a mix of commercial interest and a desire to maintain the crew bond.
In the event of a ditching, that decision to maintain the bond would have had the desired effect of equally reducing survivability for both of us!
Yes, I did not stick to my guns by refusing to fly, the show must go on, of course.
Mjb
For anyone to extract themselves they must be concious.
In helicopters, unlike cars, there are no airbags and a crushing disrespect by the industry, for reducing head trauma, through the use of interior padding.
Yes, provision of helmets to charter passengers is problematic.
I propose that we can work towards the following common sense regime, for all pilots whom carry passengers over water:
1/ Pilots wear flight helmets
2/ In water below X degrees C, pilot to wear an immersion suit or similar to reduce effects of cold shock.
2/ be Huet practiced including the use of spare air.
3/ undergo training to rescue passengers from an inverted helicopter.
The ditching of the Bell, in Queensland a few years ago during aerial filming, resulted in incomplete inversion. We should not rely on floats to save the day.
In respect to the above helping affecting a successful extraction of passengers, it follows that the one size size fits all scenarios life raft may not be the best solution for a pilot to prevent incable passengers from drowning after egress.
Ditto the life vest in a pouch that requires the wearer to be conscious and have full use of both arms to be properly fitted.
Improvements would be:
1/ passenger life vests that require no additional donning in an emergency. So a survivor can assist the unconscious by inflating the vest of others.
2/ rethink use of life rafts that have primarily designed for survival from boating accidents where survivors are able bodied and uninjured. Also consider the use of life mats, similar to those towed behind the jet skis used by life guards. Such mats could be a missing link in the chain of survival.
3/ Create a lower level safety standard of head protection for charter passengers. What is the point of a safety standard if it is not practical or commercially viable to be adopted?
This would encourage design of a cheap helmet, for instance, a semi disposable polystyrene cap that can be worn with existing David Clarke headsets. (Helmets are turn off for some passengers but a turn on for the thrill seekers)
4/ In all large cities where a body of water is the likely emergency landing area (London and Sydney for instance) rescue services should train specifically for rescue of passengers in a floating inverted helicopter.
Despite training and assistance of others and albeit in very cold water and with a 5 knot current it (reportedly) took two divers 40-60 minutes to recover three of the victims in NYC.
This should be a reminder for both those whom legislate and those whom engage in flight over water of the difficulty in extracting the unconcious, even when all the doors are removed.
Are the commercial costs of engaging the above too onerous compared to the loss of business?
Surely charter work is being chipped away at the irretrievable loss of confidence some members of the public have when they read of passengers drowning?
Exacerbated in recent time by numerous events and their aftermaths being filmed on social media?
For example, how many more helicopters sold and joy rides taken if R44 fuel tanks had been more crashworthy a decade earlier?
Any studies on the public’s level of confidence in helicopters? Is it declining?
In the rotary world, safety agencies are at least adept at counting the dead.
As for pilots I have sympathy. For an aerial shoot, I once asked for an immersion suit for two, twenty minute duration transits across very cold water in a helicopter without floats.
On the day, pilot said that no immersion suit was forthcoming for either he or myself.
After the gig the pilot later told me he had an immersion suit in the boot of his car, but decided not to wear it when he realised I was a bit pissed off!
The reasons for his decision were a mix of commercial interest and a desire to maintain the crew bond.
In the event of a ditching, that decision to maintain the bond would have had the desired effect of equally reducing survivability for both of us!
Yes, I did not stick to my guns by refusing to fly, the show must go on, of course.
Mjb
Last edited by mickjoebill; 23rd Mar 2018 at 01:42.
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Coming back to the Whitsunday, Queensland coast crash. Regardless of all the training and safety procedures I notice that the 3 survivors were aged in their thirties and the 2 fatalities were age 79 and 65 respectively. Nothing more to add except that must have been a factor in their survivability?
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Very good points mjb.
But I think the underlying issue is that the current helicopter floatation system is woefully inadequate.
In this instance the floats deployed but the ship sank. In NYC the floats deployed but the ship rolled over inverted.
I feel a completely new approach to developing emergency floatation devices for helicopters landing on water is needed, where the ship won't sink or roll over no matter how bad the last stages of autorotation onto the surface turns out.
But I think the underlying issue is that the current helicopter floatation system is woefully inadequate.
In this instance the floats deployed but the ship sank. In NYC the floats deployed but the ship rolled over inverted.
I feel a completely new approach to developing emergency floatation devices for helicopters landing on water is needed, where the ship won't sink or roll over no matter how bad the last stages of autorotation onto the surface turns out.
No surprise that NYC turned turtle given the forward speed and descent rate. I can't think of a helicopter type that consistently remains upright in ditchings...AW139, B214ST, S76 etc etc, they've all turned turtle in relatively calm seas for whatever reasons.
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they've all turned turtle in relatively calm seas for whatever reasons.
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I guess in colder waters it makes sense to try make the ship stand on water, which is quite difficult particularly in either glassy or choppy seas, but otherwise the flotation device only needs to keep passengers heads above water, but that then that makes egress quite interesting if the rotors are still turning. Some major rethink is necessitated on these flotation devices because being inverted under water appears to be one of the worst outcomes for the untrained.
This incident also reminds me of an R44 incident in Docklands Melbourne where the pilot jumped out of the helicopter and survived before it splashed into the harbour killing the other occupant who was also a PPLH. If anyone has a link to the outcome of that investigation please supply it.
This incident also reminds me of an R44 incident in Docklands Melbourne where the pilot jumped out of the helicopter and survived before it splashed into the harbour killing the other occupant who was also a PPLH. If anyone has a link to the outcome of that investigation please supply it.
MJB - I agree with most of your suggestions but eactly what training would you give to the pilot in rescuing the pax?
If you have successfully extracted yourself from a submerged helicopter, the LAST thing you want to be doing is going back in. The AAC lost a pilot doing just that many years ago - he became snagged and when the aircraft sank, he went with it.
Looking after yourself is difficult enough with the restricted movement afforded by an immersion suit and life jacket (even if it isn't inflated) such that trying to assist anyone else is nigh on impossible, even if the pilot is young, fit and uninjured.
If you have successfully extracted yourself from a submerged helicopter, the LAST thing you want to be doing is going back in. The AAC lost a pilot doing just that many years ago - he became snagged and when the aircraft sank, he went with it.
Looking after yourself is difficult enough with the restricted movement afforded by an immersion suit and life jacket (even if it isn't inflated) such that trying to assist anyone else is nigh on impossible, even if the pilot is young, fit and uninjured.
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...assuming of course that the aircraft was approaching the pad into wind.
I'm struggling to understand reports of multiple landing attempts. I mean, it's not all that difficult landing on a flat level helipad surrounded by miles of flatness.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
MJB - I agree with most of your suggestions but eactly what training would you give to the pilot in rescuing the pax?
Smaller first step, call it “helicopter inversion rescue awareness”.
You are also correct, thstcsctivites su such as duck diving below a possibly compromised inflated bag supporting a helicopter has its risks.
However, training would include the number one rule of first response of not becoming a casualty yourself.
The training for volunteer emergency services around the world caters for people of varying fitness and capabilities. I reckon HUET itself is one of the most dynamic and challenging training environments in civilian world, yet folk with average ability pass the course.
A rescue module added to existing HUET programs seems sensible.
Experienced rescue divers and trainers please chip in...
Please do not extrapolate calls for better training as being critical of the pilots in recent ditchings.
Mjb
Last edited by mickjoebill; 23rd Mar 2018 at 16:56.
It's probably still better to train all the pax in HUET if you are going to fly them over the water - it works in O&G - just depends how much you value your pax vs what revenue they generate.