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Helicopter down in East River, NYC

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Helicopter down in East River, NYC

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Old 12th Mar 2018, 20:09
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WillyPete View Post
Does this screen grab look like the front stbd float was not inflated or at least semi-detached?
Originally Posted by helonorth View Post
Still in the process of inflating? Later pictures show it fully inflated.
Some shots of the floats hours later in this NTSB tweet:

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Old 12th Mar 2018, 20:24
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
Some shots of the floats hours later in this NTSB tweet:

https://twitter.com/NTSB_Newsroom/st...56722574991360
Hmmm, middle starboard bag looks like it is full of water. Look at hte way it's hanging with a bulge, vs the other starboard floats which are loosely inflated.
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Old 12th Mar 2018, 20:30
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rotornut View Post
I understand from float plane pilots that it's very difficult to accurately judge your height when landing on water, more so when it's dark.
Yes, calm water and poor lighting conditions make it extremely difficult to accurately judge your height above water. I'd venture to say that the reflections of the city lights didn't help. Voice of experience here, no catastrophes, just been in those conditions a few times and know that even if you *think* you know your height above water, you really don't. Like TylerMonkey said, you hold an attitude and rate of descent that you know will be safe when you hit the water and wait for that to happen. I imagine that would be tough to do in an autorotation.
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Old 12th Mar 2018, 21:03
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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I know someone who's son was killed in a floatplane on a lake. Apparently he misjudged his height over the water when making a turn and the wing tip hit the water and the plane crashed into the lake.
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Old 12th Mar 2018, 21:11
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rotornut View Post
He didn't flare so I agree that he probably misjudged his altitude over the water. I understand from float plane pilots that it's very difficult to accurately judge your height when landing on water, more so when it's dark.
Hi Rotornut, re float planes - very true - we call it "glassy water". It's like a white out - we actually fly it on instruments (you just don't know when you're going to touch) - for example, fly along side a line of trees (known height) set up a 100/150 feet per minute rate of descent at minimum approach speed until you touch the water - it's a highly demanding heads in piece of flying .... and don't, don't anticipate or the touch down - uses a lot of distance.

A RAD ALT is extremely useful in these situations - say, set the alert at 10 feet or so - just so that you don't fly straight into the water without a flare.

Must be incredibly difficult in an autorotation
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Old 12th Mar 2018, 21:14
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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And why would five people be passengers on a 'photo' flight? It turns out that Manhattan tourist helo flights on Sunday have been banned by local authorities since 2016.

So, the scam (in New York City no less, I'm shocked I tell you ) is to call the flight a photo flight and operate from New Jersey. Since folks on a photo flight are 'journalists' you can't restrict their First Amendment rights now can you?

Anyway, one of the folks was a journalist but the others were tourists and helo company employees.

From one of the local tabloids:

The helicopters tours have been a concern for years, with most complaints revolving around noise caused by the low-flying aircrafts.

In February 2016, Mayor de Blasio announced a deal he said would reduce helicopter tours from the Downtown Manhattan heliport around the city by 50% — and eliminate them altogether on Sundays.

But the deal was riddled with loopholes that have not significantly reduced chopper flights around the city, according to John Dellaportas, president of Stop The Chop NY NJ, which has pressed for measures against the sightseeing tours for years.

The deal only applied to the heliport near Wall Street operated by the city’s Economic Development Corporation.

Helicopter operators are able to dodge the regulations by marketing their flights as professional photography tours and by taking off from New Jersey, Dellaportas said.
Journalist, tourists among dead in East River helicopter crash - NY Daily News
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Old 12th Mar 2018, 21:27
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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When I was still flying we gave “at the helicopter” safety briefings in addition to the video when available... then we would seat the pax, close the doors and ask pax at the doors inside to demonstrate opening from inside... there would be a look down, some fiddling then a sheepish look back up with the door still closed. 50% of the time...
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Old 12th Mar 2018, 21:27
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
And why would five people be passengers on a 'photo' flight? It turns out that Manhattan tourist helo flights on Sunday have been banned by local authorities since 2016.

So, the scam (in New York City no less, I'm shocked I tell you ) is to call the flight a photo flight and operate from New Jersey. Since folks on a photo flight are 'journalists' you can't restrict their First Amendment rights now can you?

Anyway, one of the folks was a journalist but the others were tourists and helo company employees.

From one of the local tabloids:



Journalist, tourists among dead in East River helicopter crash - NY Daily News
Loopholes or no loopholes, some serious questions will be asked in court as to why the ‘journalists’ were using harnesses without a quick release mechanism. The answer will most like be (or at least subpoenad emails or txts to the effect) saying that they don’t want an untrained monkey pullling the quick release and falling out of the helicopter.

Instead they strapped everyone into the aircraft without adequate training to extricate themselves, as evidenced by everyone being dead except for the pilot.

I hope the company burns for this.
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Old 12th Mar 2018, 21:43
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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The industry will burn for this. And all that money vacuumed out by the legal settlements will cripple sightseeing helicopter operations specifically and manufacturers and operators generally. The self-funded career will die because of nowhere to build time (looking at all you EASA guys that have been relying on flying tours here to build time).
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Old 12th Mar 2018, 21:47
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Originally Posted by malabo View Post
The industry will burn for this. And all that money vacuumed out by the legal settlements will cripple sightseeing helicopter operations specifically and manufacturers and operators generally. The self-funded career will die because of nowhere to build time (looking at all you EASA guys that have been relying on flying tours here to build time).
And rightly so. 5 people are dead totally unnecessarily.
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Old 12th Mar 2018, 21:50
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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So this could all be down to a poorly designed FCL then...

Last edited by Senior Pilot; 12th Mar 2018 at 22:43. Reason: ‘Snot a ‘throttle’!
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Old 12th Mar 2018, 21:53
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chopjock View Post
So this could all be down to a poorly designed FCL then...
Not really. If it was the FCL that caused the helicopter to go down then that’s one thing.

The real cause of the deaths are the people being unable to escape from the cabin underwater.
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Old 12th Mar 2018, 22:03
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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And we are back to cold water shock.

Immersion suits and air bottles (STASS or equivalent) would at least have given them a fighting chance.

Even being shown a video of how to escape underwater would have better than nothing.

Planned flight over water out of auto range of land with water temp less than 5 degrees.........
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Old 12th Mar 2018, 22:34
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post

Immersion suits and air bottles (STASS or equivalent) would at least have given them a fighting chance.
and i got ******* chastised in the Pappillon thread for suggesting flame retardant overalls and flight helmets.
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Old 12th Mar 2018, 22:43
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GrayHorizonsHeli View Post
and i got ******* chastised in the Pappillon thread for suggesting flame retardant overalls and flight helmets.
That probably because none of those things is ever going to happen!
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Old 12th Mar 2018, 23:00
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Physical the passengers seemed to be good in shape. One a 26 year old fire fighter. So definitely the harness release was a mayor factor.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/12/n...pgtype=article
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Old 12th Mar 2018, 23:56
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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I doubt they are using these to connect either end of the safety tether to the floor hard points or the ring on the harness located between the shoulder blades. Static line hookup hardware like these would be a bad choice underwater or for a tour customer.
You need to push the large button to slide the hook open . . . and it’s a two handed excercise normally.
Makes no sense in a tour chopper.

Anyone know what hardware they normally use ?


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Old 12th Mar 2018, 23:57
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
And we are back to cold water shock.

Immersion suits and air bottles (STASS or equivalent) would at least have given them a fighting chance.

Even being shown a video of how to escape underwater would have better than nothing.

Planned flight over water out of auto range of land with water temp less than 5 degrees.........
I keep coming back to the water temps too, especially since it looks like the doors were off, hence the harnesses.

The video shows the fuselage partially submerging on first contact with the water (floats underwater), then a fairly quick roll-over. With the doors off, that cabin would have filled with frigid water very quickly. I wonder if a doors-closed flight might have given them a little more time.

I've done photo shoots (real ones) in a harness with doors off, but never over water at those temps.
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 00:38
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Crab,

How far in advance would you have the customer book the flight....and the necessary training to use all that gear?

Surely you don”t think it fine to hand a passenger a PFD and Puff Bottle...as they head out the door to the aircraft do you?








Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
And we are back to cold water shock.

Immersion suits and air bottles (STASS or equivalent) would at least have given them a fighting chance.

Even being shown a video of how to escape underwater would have better than nothing.

Planned flight over water out of auto range of land with water temp less than 5 degrees.........
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Old 13th Mar 2018, 00:39
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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Filmed a ship steaming in Goose Bay at minus 26C in the open door , no fun. The video camera lasted 20 minutes then broke the tape transport gears ! That was an AStar with both right side doors off . Thankfully we were out of options .

If I had to rig anybody else in the door ( or front ) I teach one procedure always. If you’re faced with a water landing then assume you will end up inverted. Now on dry land close your eyes and find your release system. Activate it with eyes closed. Do this 3 times and you’re good to go. So far we’ve never needed it . . . touch wood.
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