Helicopter down in East River, NYC
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"A professional photo flight is one where the client consults with the pilot, sets the objective and flight path"
The NYON flights do not follow a prescribed path. During the briefings the pilot will consult with the pax and ask if there are any places they want to go and shoot. He will try and encompass as many of the locations as is possible within the flight time. So its not just a doors off tourist flight like Liberty or NY Heli etc.
The NYON flights do not follow a prescribed path. During the briefings the pilot will consult with the pax and ask if there are any places they want to go and shoot. He will try and encompass as many of the locations as is possible within the flight time. So its not just a doors off tourist flight like Liberty or NY Heli etc.
A professional photo/film/video flight is aimed at a specific objective, where the client is telling the pilot exactly what they need. It's an airborne tripod, run by the person handling the camera. I've done hundreds of those, and it's a big difference in the number of people in the cabin, length of flight, and risk factors.
The big problem I see going forward is that professionals will be using more drones for this kind of work, leaving helicopter company owners to move towards these thrill-seeker rides when they lose the photo/film work.
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Ignoring the desire to have your feet in shot, do many professionals hang out of the door? I have done professional photography flights from an R44 (please let's not start an argument about the Robinson fleet) and happily been able to shoot out of the front and rear doors without obstruction from the aircraft. Clean shots, all whilst secured by the 3-point seat belt. The pilot put me where I needed to be to get the shots.
The only harness I have used was in a Navy Seaking where I did sit "feet out" to get the shots once the door had been slid open.
The only harness I have used was in a Navy Seaking where I did sit "feet out" to get the shots once the door had been slid open.
I use a harness but I dont lean out to get any of my shots. In some cases I will sit on the floor of the AS350 or Bell 429 as examples but will not lean right out - dont see the point in adding that extra level of risk when it doesn't actually make much difference to the shots I am trying to get.
have I ever shot the feet in the image shot - only once and wasnt intentional.
have I ever shot the feet in the image shot - only once and wasnt intentional.
Join Date: Jan 2003
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I've been watching this thread since the start but have only just felt the need to say something. Sorry KiwiNedNZ but these are pure and simple tourist flights looking for that bit extra, be that hanging out or just better shots. Have you ever sat in the middle 2 seats of a Squirrel? Difficult to get any photos of the wonderful NYC skyline.
Just look at NYONs website for the proof of where they think the market is.
I used to live in Central Manhattan just a few blocks from the East River and spent many an hour just watching the helicopters coming and going. Not many tourist helicopters as they mainly used the Hudson. But sunset shots of NJ aren't as good so that's why this tourist flight was over the East River on a Sunday.
As SASless said earlier there is a different mind set in the US in that if it doesn't say I can't then I can and will. In a ideal world they would have been fully trained and briefed in emersion suits with quick release harnesses, all in a nice big twin but no market for that due to the high cost.
Going forward will anything happen, probably not. Just maybe they will stop the front seat using a harness if that was found to be the cause of the ditching.
Just look at NYONs website for the proof of where they think the market is.
I used to live in Central Manhattan just a few blocks from the East River and spent many an hour just watching the helicopters coming and going. Not many tourist helicopters as they mainly used the Hudson. But sunset shots of NJ aren't as good so that's why this tourist flight was over the East River on a Sunday.
As SASless said earlier there is a different mind set in the US in that if it doesn't say I can't then I can and will. In a ideal world they would have been fully trained and briefed in emersion suits with quick release harnesses, all in a nice big twin but no market for that due to the high cost.
Going forward will anything happen, probably not. Just maybe they will stop the front seat using a harness if that was found to be the cause of the ditching.
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I would not blame the operator for the harness used. If the lever guard was ever retrofitted is subject to NTSB. This would be OP responsibility.
The harness in first place is for regular commercial flights to prevent from tourists to fall out of the skies. The harness has no quick release. Excited tourists easily could manipulate this. I see it every time I handle pax boarding my helicopter. I reularly have to pull them away from the ramp, from the tail rotor and from putting their feet on the pedals in front seat, even having told them to to do so. More, considering the risk of one falling from the skies or the times you got to ditch the helicopter, I would opt for the harness without rapid release too.
Case two. I do precision flying in helicopter. We fly 100ft above ground, doing slalom and flying through pylons. The chance is given to have a touch, go down, catch fire. At that point I need to get out of the burning wreck quick. For this, quick release is essential. Asides from the fact that I know and accept the risk to die for this fun.
Two different cases.
The harness in first place is for regular commercial flights to prevent from tourists to fall out of the skies. The harness has no quick release. Excited tourists easily could manipulate this. I see it every time I handle pax boarding my helicopter. I reularly have to pull them away from the ramp, from the tail rotor and from putting their feet on the pedals in front seat, even having told them to to do so. More, considering the risk of one falling from the skies or the times you got to ditch the helicopter, I would opt for the harness without rapid release too.
Case two. I do precision flying in helicopter. We fly 100ft above ground, doing slalom and flying through pylons. The chance is given to have a touch, go down, catch fire. At that point I need to get out of the burning wreck quick. For this, quick release is essential. Asides from the fact that I know and accept the risk to die for this fun.
Two different cases.
The harnesses used were inappropriate for use in a helicopter.
They prevented fast and simple egress from the aircraft.
If the aircraft had caught fire then the passengers would have found it very difficult to exit the aircraft.
There are harnesses on the market that are specifically designed for the task.
They should have been used.
They prevented fast and simple egress from the aircraft.
If the aircraft had caught fire then the passengers would have found it very difficult to exit the aircraft.
There are harnesses on the market that are specifically designed for the task.
They should have been used.
The to be expected result of the lawsuit in this particular case might make you re- think this position.
And I also do not want to be in the shoes of the poor pilot. Sitting on top of the wreckage being unable to help and see people drown helplessly less then 10ft away from you. Horrendous.
I would not blame the operator for the harness used. If the lever guard was ever retrofitted is subject to NTSB. This would be OP responsibility.
The harness in first place is for regular commercial flights to prevent from tourists to fall out of the skies. The harness has no quick release. Excited tourists easily could manipulate this. I see it every time I handle pax boarding my helicopter. I reularly have to pull them away from the ramp, from the tail rotor and from putting their feet on the pedals in front seat, even having told them to to do so. More, considering the risk of one falling from the skies or the times you got to ditch the helicopter, I would opt for the harness without rapid release too.
Case two. I do precision flying in helicopter. We fly 100ft above ground, doing slalom and flying through pylons. The chance is given to have a touch, go down, catch fire. At that point I need to get out of the burning wreck quick. For this, quick release is essential. Asides from the fact that I know and accept the risk to die for this fun.
Two different cases.
The harness in first place is for regular commercial flights to prevent from tourists to fall out of the skies. The harness has no quick release. Excited tourists easily could manipulate this. I see it every time I handle pax boarding my helicopter. I reularly have to pull them away from the ramp, from the tail rotor and from putting their feet on the pedals in front seat, even having told them to to do so. More, considering the risk of one falling from the skies or the times you got to ditch the helicopter, I would opt for the harness without rapid release too.
Case two. I do precision flying in helicopter. We fly 100ft above ground, doing slalom and flying through pylons. The chance is given to have a touch, go down, catch fire. At that point I need to get out of the burning wreck quick. For this, quick release is essential. Asides from the fact that I know and accept the risk to die for this fun.
Two different cases.
I am curious as to the lack of response to chopjock's post about the 2010 finding.
Hot and Hi,
answer this if you will.................and honestly.
Do you have children?
If your children had been airborne in that helo....they would be dead now.
If your children had been in that same helicopter but it had been a twin squirrel, they would almost certainly be alive and still bugging the hell out of you!
A twin in this particular instance would have limped to safety on the river bank.
5 human beings and all their families would be sitting down to dinner right now., talking about the near miss they had that day.
Think carefully before you respond. Twins actually make a difference in instances like this. In fact if any COMMERCIAL operation flies over inhospitable terrain - it should be mandatory. But I accept that for most - the extra costs don't add up.
The funny thing is - if you think twins asre expensive - try having a fatal accident.
This company will never recover from this.
answer this if you will.................and honestly.
Do you have children?
If your children had been airborne in that helo....they would be dead now.
If your children had been in that same helicopter but it had been a twin squirrel, they would almost certainly be alive and still bugging the hell out of you!
A twin in this particular instance would have limped to safety on the river bank.
5 human beings and all their families would be sitting down to dinner right now., talking about the near miss they had that day.
Think carefully before you respond. Twins actually make a difference in instances like this. In fact if any COMMERCIAL operation flies over inhospitable terrain - it should be mandatory. But I accept that for most - the extra costs don't add up.
The funny thing is - if you think twins asre expensive - try having a fatal accident.
This company will never recover from this.
At what point in the process is the Authority (FAA), the Manufactuer, the Operator, and the Pilot expected to anticipate such an event and take preventative action?
We have to consider the legal concept of “the burden of knowledge” in looking at this tragedy.
Another way is to define the failures to act that allowed these five people to be in such a situation.
At times like this I wish I had gone to law school after my military service as I would be making a wad of money out of this!
We have to consider the legal concept of “the burden of knowledge” in looking at this tragedy.
Another way is to define the failures to act that allowed these five people to be in such a situation.
At times like this I wish I had gone to law school after my military service as I would be making a wad of money out of this!
SaSless,
many a true word spoken in jest!
I was touching on a burden of knowledge point earlier on when I suggested the operator should have been able to foresee more or less what happened here.
Something snagging a control : excited passengers moving around, assorted attachments and lanyards, key controls on the floor : Reasonably foreseeable
Emergency landing on water : densely built up area under much of flightpath, water under much of the rest: Reasonably foreseeable
Aircraft doesnt float upright on landing : difficulty in achieving a smooth autorotation, history... : Reasonably foreseeable
Passengers trapped in aircraft : Upside down, cold shock, need to use knives/ unshackle harnesses. (lack of doors a mitigant) : Reasonably foreseeable.
Simply my opinion of course, but whatever way you look at it, I dont think the operators would have had to spend too long thinking about it to imagine that a scenario like this was a possibility in the event of an aircraft emergency.
many a true word spoken in jest!
I was touching on a burden of knowledge point earlier on when I suggested the operator should have been able to foresee more or less what happened here.
Something snagging a control : excited passengers moving around, assorted attachments and lanyards, key controls on the floor : Reasonably foreseeable
Emergency landing on water : densely built up area under much of flightpath, water under much of the rest: Reasonably foreseeable
Aircraft doesnt float upright on landing : difficulty in achieving a smooth autorotation, history... : Reasonably foreseeable
Passengers trapped in aircraft : Upside down, cold shock, need to use knives/ unshackle harnesses. (lack of doors a mitigant) : Reasonably foreseeable.
Simply my opinion of course, but whatever way you look at it, I dont think the operators would have had to spend too long thinking about it to imagine that a scenario like this was a possibility in the event of an aircraft emergency.
BOOK YOUR HELICOPTER RIDE
Where would you like to fly?
Where would you like to fly?
Last edited by Gordy; 15th Mar 2018 at 16:30. Reason: Spelling---hate when I get it wrong
Not clutching at anything Gordy - Am only telling you what I have seen personally and what pat the owner has told me from day one. If thats what the marketing people are pushing on the website then I cant argue with that.
Falcon900 - absolutely - it takes about 10 seconds of 'what ifs' to conclude that it is a high risk scenario operating a single, over water at dusk with multiple pax secured in unsuitable harnesses.
But its OK, they were making dollars and creating jobs.......................
But its OK, they were making dollars and creating jobs.......................
Gordy - Pats idea wasn't to focus on just professional photographers - it is photographers of all types - pro, amateur, semi pro etc. Suppose thats where it becomes difficult how to class them.
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A professional camera crew is likely to be at least somewhat experienced with the situation, including use of the (proper) harness systems.
A tourist ride should have more restrictions on what is offered, considering it's probably the first time some of these people have ever been in a helicopter. One of those restrictions could be having them stay in their seats, belted in normally, without a harness for hanging out the doorway. Except for the middle rear seat, there is just no need for that, to get good photos in a doors-off helicopter. I've done that hundreds of times in a helicopter, and only used a harness for very special circumstances when wide-angle shots were required.
Let's get real... NYON isn't offering to let people sit on the floor with their legs hanging out in order to get better photos. They're selling thrills.
"Let's get real... NYON isn't offering to let people sit on the floor with their legs hanging out in order to get better photos. They're selling thrills."
You believe whatever you want and I will believe that the owner of the company has told me, who I have known for ten years.
You believe whatever you want and I will believe that the owner of the company has told me, who I have known for ten years.
An earlier post linked to the publicity videos associated with the photographic flights, and one clearly show the route being planned on the basis of the requests from the pax/amateur photographers. I would say that Ned is right in his assertions and the mooted premise that these are single route scenic flights are incorrect.
Good to see that you are buying a new harness, Ned. We put you in a quick release harness whenever you flew with us, all those years ago. How time flies....
Good to see that you are buying a new harness, Ned. We put you in a quick release harness whenever you flew with us, all those years ago. How time flies....
