407 versus 130
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 81
Likes: 3
From: Middle England
407 versus 130
Morning to All,
Firstly thanks very much to those who have already responded to PMs about either of the machines above.
Whilst I’ve loved our R66 (really!), it was always a toe in the water for us to see whether we would get enough use to justify operating our own machine.
I’m now starting to look more seriously about an upgrade. I can’t justify going for a twin, but would like a single with a bit more speed and range, along with something that can handle turbulence rather better than the R66. It’s been a great machine, but 80kts into a headwind on a gusty day can be a bit frustrating.
I’m looking at B407 versus H130 and wondered if any of you have experience of flying/operating both machines, and whether you’d share your thoughts with me?
Obviously I’m very au fait with what the brochures say, but would love to know the stuff they don’t tell you in the marketing materials. Real costs, fuel burn, actual performance, service support, maintenance frequency (does the 130 really have a 10hr engineer check on main rotor??) and all that other good stuff.
We would be looking to buy a new machine, so I guess residual value would be a factor too if threre is an advantage one way or the other.
Is there any other heli that should be in the mix?
Thanks for any thoughts.
FF
Firstly thanks very much to those who have already responded to PMs about either of the machines above.
Whilst I’ve loved our R66 (really!), it was always a toe in the water for us to see whether we would get enough use to justify operating our own machine.
I’m now starting to look more seriously about an upgrade. I can’t justify going for a twin, but would like a single with a bit more speed and range, along with something that can handle turbulence rather better than the R66. It’s been a great machine, but 80kts into a headwind on a gusty day can be a bit frustrating.
I’m looking at B407 versus H130 and wondered if any of you have experience of flying/operating both machines, and whether you’d share your thoughts with me?
Obviously I’m very au fait with what the brochures say, but would love to know the stuff they don’t tell you in the marketing materials. Real costs, fuel burn, actual performance, service support, maintenance frequency (does the 130 really have a 10hr engineer check on main rotor??) and all that other good stuff.
We would be looking to buy a new machine, so I guess residual value would be a factor too if threre is an advantage one way or the other.
Is there any other heli that should be in the mix?
Thanks for any thoughts.
FF
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,951
Likes: 90
From: After all, what’s more important than proving to someone on the internet that they’re wrong? - Manson
HeliOps Magazine Back Issues
Issue 111 Page 43
"Six of One" by Jeremiah Wright - "debating between two airframes: Airbus’s H130 and Bell’s 407"
Issue 111 Page 43
"Six of One" by Jeremiah Wright - "debating between two airframes: Airbus’s H130 and Bell’s 407"
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,330
Likes: 74
From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
Make sure the 407's serial number is greater than 500 - lots of bugs fixed, otherwise a great machine. I think Bell's after sales is better, but that's just my experience.
Joined: Jun 2016
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 1,318
Likes: 387
From: Brantisvogan
HeliOps Magazine Back Issues
Issue 111 Page 43
"Six of One" by Jeremiah Wright - "debating between two airframes: Airbus’s H130 and Bell’s 407"
Issue 111 Page 43
"Six of One" by Jeremiah Wright - "debating between two airframes: Airbus’s H130 and Bell’s 407"
Who cares, that's why you pay them the money, the bloke in the front doesn't have to worry about that
Why fly a tourist bus when you can have something far better like the Bell
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 81
Likes: 3
From: Middle England
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,951
Likes: 90
From: After all, what’s more important than proving to someone on the internet that they’re wrong? - Manson
I am not sure you will be able to get an Augusta 119 onto the UK register. There are none on the G register at the moment.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 642
Likes: 2
From: daworld
But that big ol PT6 sucks the gas. And costs $$$ when you hit overhaul. But, nothing should go wrong with it. It is a PT6 after all.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,330
Likes: 74
From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
Is that high speed with smoothness, or is it like the 139's maximum that you can only practically do 15% under due to the vibration. Went through all that with Alton Towers.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 81
Likes: 3
From: Middle England
Thanks
Cheers for all the responses and PMs. Hadn’t even thought of the A119, but must admit that I find some comfort in the sheer number of 407s in service.
I’ll get my act together and sort a flirt round in each of them over the summer.
Thanks again and happy flying to all.
FF
I’ll get my act together and sort a flirt round in each of them over the summer.
Thanks again and happy flying to all.
FF
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,852
Likes: 0
From: Canada
Niagara Helicopters, which runs sightseeing flights over Niagara Falls, used 407s exclusively. Ruedi Hafen, former owner of the company, praised Bell for its support. He had nothing good to say about Eurocopter, now Airbus Helicopters. However, in 2015 the company bought 4 H130s. Presumably Airbus gives better support now as its Canadian headquarters is only about 30 km. away from Niagara's base.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 642
Likes: 2
From: daworld
paco, the problem with the 139 is that the 1/rev is too smooth. They typically run 0.08 IPS at Vne, so you feel the 5/rev really bad.
If you fit the Mast Vibration Absorber it kills that 5/rev vibe at the source. Otherwise get your mechanics to tune the underfloor hammers properly. And I mean PROPERLY. A lot of the companies around are to lazy to do it.
Same deal with the Koala, fit the hammers and tune them properly and you'll have a much smoother ride. Comfortable cruise in a Koala is around 140 with everything tuned nicely. Still pretty quick. Though slow for an AW machine.
If you fit the Mast Vibration Absorber it kills that 5/rev vibe at the source. Otherwise get your mechanics to tune the underfloor hammers properly. And I mean PROPERLY. A lot of the companies around are to lazy to do it.
Same deal with the Koala, fit the hammers and tune them properly and you'll have a much smoother ride. Comfortable cruise in a Koala is around 140 with everything tuned nicely. Still pretty quick. Though slow for an AW machine.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,330
Likes: 74
From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
Thanks for that - but it begs the question as to why someone should need to buy an extra pack. Not that I fly it myself but it was a major complaint at the Royal Flight in Dubai.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
From: Dubai
Apologies for continuing the thread drift...
PACO - that is somewhat out of date. We had some initial speed constraints for passenger comfort but the combination of MVA and AVCS on the AW139 made a huge difference to our aircraft.
When we bought our AW189 we were told we wouldn't need the MVA as well as the AVCS.
We spec'd it and fitted it on a trial basis during acceptance. We refused to let them take it off. Smooth!
PACO - that is somewhat out of date. We had some initial speed constraints for passenger comfort but the combination of MVA and AVCS on the AW139 made a huge difference to our aircraft.
When we bought our AW189 we were told we wouldn't need the MVA as well as the AVCS.
We spec'd it and fitted it on a trial basis during acceptance. We refused to let them take it off. Smooth!
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 768
Likes: 45
From: Montreal
Seeing a few 119’s on fires this summer. 140 knots is a realistic cruise, 240 gal bucketing on a 150’ line. Four smokeaters plus bucket, line and gear. Maybe 2 hrs fuel. Working machine, aluminum floor pan and bash plates. That one below the door is for winter heliskiers that want to kick the snow of their boots, even after you tell them not to.
