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Isle of Scilly Shuttle - New Operator

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Isle of Scilly Shuttle - New Operator

Old 26th Mar 2019, 00:15
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Boslandew View Post
The whole crux of the matter is that helicopters operate from Penzance at sea-level and could and again will be able to operate IFR when the cloud is 300 ft above sea-level. Even with the most advantageous limits probable at Lands End with GPS approaches, they will need a cloud base of 700 ft above sea level. That 400 ft difference is what makes helicopters from Penzance so much more reliable than the fixed-wing service from Lands End.
Wrong. With respect, the whole crux of the matter is that people, including the planning committee and other stakeholders in Penzance Heliport, are unknowingly seeking advice from people who are out of touch with current CAT regulation and promising the undeliverable based on what the S61 once did.

You cannot fly a ‘Proceed VFR’ GNSS PinS approach with a 523ft AMSL OCA (not <300ft the observant will notice) in less than VFR destination weather +/-1hr eta, which for flight over water is a 600ft cloud ceiling. Well you probably can, but you’d need 2 IFR alternates meeting planning minima (+200m/400ft) as the destination weather would be below minima.

Neither can you dive and drive over water to 250ft these days incase there is a large vessel. You can’t use radar to mitigate against this unless you are flying an ARA or offshore GNSS approach iaw a HOFO approval in which case passengers must be wearing survival suits and be HUET trained etc.

So you have an ‘IFR’ approach designed to let one down to 523ft requiring VFR destination weather at Penzance (600ft ceiling and 1500m vis), hardly the weather resiliance game changer in low cloud and fog.

Ah yes - Culdrose Radar... have you ever tried them at a weekend, or after 5pm, or during a bank holiday, or times of school holidays, or around midday... or whenever else they NOTAM it or just decide to shut - hardly the robust solution you want to rely on for your IFR separation.

(P.s. in a 600ft cloud ceiling you don’t need to fly IFR to Lands End, you can fly VFR).

Last edited by SARWannabe; 26th Mar 2019 at 08:54.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 11:13
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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insert 'like' emoji here..........................
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Old 27th Mar 2019, 12:10
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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SARwannabe - you forget two other important factors.

1) If a ‘Proceed VFR’ PinS is to be flown at night over water you would need 1200ft cloud base for the VFR segment.

2) Lands End also has bright RTIL strobes & edge lighting directly lined up with the inbound track as you coast in at 600ft VFR bang on the APAPIs to a large runway. In marginal visibilities these often stand out as the first detail you see coasting in and they give you a warm fuzzy feeling. The MAPt on the Penzance Heliport plate is 1km from the nearest land, and any FATO lighting will be perpendicular to the inbound track. In 1500m vis at 600ft you would be lucky to make out sufficient detail to proceed with the goldfish bowl effect.

Penzance would be a lovely place to operate from in good weather, convenient for customers off the train, save the drive to Lands End etc but I also don’t believe it offers anything real in terms of added weather resiliance without a proper IFR solution. They could presumably turn the ‘Proceed VFR’ to a ‘Proceed visually’ and bring the MAPt closer to the heliport which would help in poor visibility, but due to the rising ground in the missed approach the OCH would rise and it’s already above 520ft.

Weather resiliance was the buzz word phrase for added support during the planning process. When modern day regulation changes were mentioned fingers went in ears.
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Old 27th Mar 2019, 20:26
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Time for some out-of-the-box thinking:

The helicopter service was convient, and it had an excitement factor.

Why not have a hovercraft ?! Exciting, novel, fast and not subject to cloudbase
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Old 27th Mar 2019, 22:07
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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DeltaNG: maybe you are just being provocative, but have you ever seen, or experienced, the sea states usual between Land End and the Scillies? Hovercraft might indeed be fast and not subject to cloud base, but they are even more subject to wave height than aircraft are subject to cloud height. They would not operate more than once a week on average and in some months not at all. The Dover Straits were a considerable challenge for the largest hovercraft, so the seas off Lands End will be completely prohibitive. I know whereof I speak, having been in the coastal shipping business for some 45 years.
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Old 27th Mar 2019, 23:13
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by highrpm View Post
I didn’t even know Sloanes have a 139 on their AoC. Well done. Are all the positions full? I haven’t seen them advertised anywhere.
https://www.caa.co.uk/uploadedFiles/...OCList_N_Z.pdf

They don’t.... AW139 and multi-pilot will all be brand new to their AoC
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Old 28th Mar 2019, 09:24
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Cool

Yes pettinger: I'm trying to raise a little laugh.

I've flown over the seas between LND and STM for the last ten years, and seen some enormous seas. Not every day mind.

Ok then - what about that Condor thing that they use in the Channel Islands?
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Old 28th Mar 2019, 10:03
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DeltaNg View Post
Yes pettinger: I'm trying to raise a little laugh.

I've flown over the seas between LND and STM for the last ten years, and seen some enormous seas. Not every day mind.

Ok then - what about that Condor thing that they use in the Channel Islands?
Rather too much capacity for the route? Can it/could it sit on the harbour bed at low tide like Scillonian does?
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Old 28th Mar 2019, 17:44
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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DeltaNG:
Apologies that I missed your joke. (Though there have been dafter suggestions made in all seriousness elsewhere on PPRuNe)
The mere fact that helicopters are considered a viable option at all is really because all other high-speed sea-going solutions are impractical on a regular basis because of the appalling sea conditions that often occur in the area.
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Old 28th Mar 2019, 22:38
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Has there ever been a proper study as to just how appalling the sea state is plotted against the appaling nature of the cloud/vis/wind etc ?


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Old 29th Mar 2019, 10:08
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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There's no such thing as a bad sea state, just the wrong sort of boat...

Safehaven Marine

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Old 29th Mar 2019, 13:09
  #72 (permalink)  
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Friend of mine who's a fairly hardy sailor admits to having felt distinctly queasy on the Scillonian...
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Old 30th Mar 2019, 12:36
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Originally Posted by DeltaNg View Post
Time for some out-of-the-box thinking
....build a tunnel and add one more stop to the western end of the London Penzance rail link..

now mind the gap and move on...simple

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Old 30th Mar 2019, 14:33
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Penzance approaches

Originally Posted by SARWannabe View Post


Wrong. With respect, the whole crux of the matter is that people, including the planning committee and other stakeholders in Penzance Heliport, are unknowingly seeking advice from people who are out of touch with current CAT regulation and promising the undeliverable based on what the S61 once did.

You cannot fly a ‘Proceed VFR’ GNSS PinS approach with a 523ft AMSL OCA (not <300ft the observant will notice) in less than VFR destination weather +/-1hr eta, which for flight over water is a 600ft cloud ceiling. Well you probably can, but you’d need 2 IFR alternates meeting planning minima (+200m/400ft) as the destination weather would be below minima.

Neither can you dive and drive over water to 250ft these days incase there is a large vessel. You can’t use radar to mitigate against this unless you are flying an ARA or offshore GNSS approach iaw a HOFO approval in which case passengers must be wearing survival suits and be HUET trained etc.

So you have an ‘IFR’ approach designed to let one down to 523ft requiring VFR destination weather at Penzance (600ft ceiling and 1500m vis), hardly the weather resiliance game changer in low cloud and fog.

Ah yes - Culdrose Radar... have you ever tried them at a weekend, or after 5pm, or during a bank holiday, or times of school holidays, or around midday... or whenever else they NOTAM it or just decide to shut - hardly the robust solution you want to rely on for your IFR separation.

(P.s. in a 600ft cloud ceiling you don’t need to fly IFR to Lands End, you can fly VFR).
I will admit to being out of date as to modern procedures which is why I am not relying on my memory but on up-to-date information. May I refer you to the open letter published by Sloane Helicopters, the proposed operators (PA16_09346-OPERATING_SITE_REQUIREMENTS_-_SLOANE_HELICOPTERS-3632425.pdf) as part of the planning application to Cornwall Council. It explains in all necessary detail how the service would operate and the specific differences between operating from Penzance and from Lands End. The approaches to Penzance were planned by one of the foremost ATC planning experts in Europe and he was confident that IF approaches into Penzance and Tresco to 300ft AMSL would be approved. They could not be approved before planning permission had been granted. Validation flights have been flown.

Regardless of that, whatever the weather conditions prevailing, because Lands End is at 400 ft elevation and Penzance is at sea-level, Penzance will always be better off. I flew the service for six years, (how about you?) made nearly 4000 round trips, IFR or VFR, in full accordance with CAA requirements including diversion fuel. Within the first year I lost count of the number of times we routinely flew our service while Lands End was closed due to weather. I have flown six of the twelve daily flights VFR with Lands End at 400 'grounded all day. Ask anyone in Penzance or Scillies who used the service and they will tell you which was and will be the most reliable.

At the open meeting held in Penzance prior to final approval of the planning application speaker after speaker got up and said that, for example, (post Penzance helicopter service) that if they wanted to go to hospital on the mainland on a Monday in winter (no passenger boat in winter) they had to plan to travel on the previous Friday, with all the expense of a stay in Penzance over the weekend to make sure they made their appointment. One girl said she nearly missed her own wedding because it took her five days to get off Scillies via Lands End. Never happened at Penzance.
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