Isle of Scilly Shuttle - New Operator

[heli1]

So what has SAS AW169 G-SASX being doing since the service stopped last November ?

[horatio_b]

Looking at FR24, G-SASX appears to have spent most of this year on Police or Helimed operations out of Lydd

[Boslandew]

Larger aircraft on Scillies

Originally Posted by rog747

Skybus would have been better to go for a bigger aircraft - ?

The 50 seater Dash 7 of Brymon was earmarked for the ISC route but was deemed too big back then when the island airport was still fledgling.
Today with the new longer hard runway they would have been real people movers and possibly even served a London direct service

I think the problem with larger aircraft on the route is that of landing at St Mary's. I used to fly the S61 from Penzance and always understood that the gradients on the runways at St Mary's were outside modern limits and the present aircraft were only allowed to operate via grandfather rights. I'd like to know if anyone can confirm or deny that?

The use of helicopters from Lands End airport was never more than a gimmick. Whats the point of paying helicopter prices if there's a fixed wing aircraft operating the same route?

[rog747]

I think at the time (1981?) it was thought the DASH 7 could go anywhere where the Twotter could, but St Mary's then, was found to be out of limits - I think there was one test fight with Brymon. Capt Harry Gee iirc. But they were not happy.

Edit
re DASH 7 performance and ISC

please see thread here for more correct forum

Scilly Isles Route

Thanks

[Boslandew]

Isles of Scilly

Having flown the service for six years from Penzance, having read the submissions from all involved parties, having attended the open meeting in Penzance St Johns hall about the proposed service last year and having seen that in recent weeks services by sea have been suspended due to extreme weather I am convinced that the only way to provide a reliable, year-round passenger and light freight service to the Scillies is with a helicopter from Penzance.

There is no other way to do it.

[Thomas coupling]

And what's wrong with using an Islander for instance. A third the cost, less than half the running costs and can fly in much worse weather than the humble helicopter? Carries loads more too. Or for that matter what about a 2nd hand Shorts 360?

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Shorts 360 = Flying Wardrobe!
Islander = a few humans and horribly slow.
S61/S92 = 24 pax plus bags and hostie + small runway.
TC, stop promoting planks!!!!!! This is Rotorheads.

BTW, unless you can get a Shorts 360/Small Plank to do CAT-III autolands, the humble helicopter can land & T/O in the same limits as a FW. TC????

[SARWannabe]

Originally Posted by DOUBLE BOGEY

BTW, unless you can get a Shorts 360/Small Plank to do CAT-III autolands, the humble helicopter can land & T/O in the same limits as a FW. TC????

The humble helicopter can take off in lower limits, but probably won’t have anywhere to go in 400m vis

The vis will always have to be greater at Penzance than Lands End unless they improve on their ‘continue VFR’ PinS. approach.

[Thomas coupling]

DB - c'mon. We're talking additional freight and pax to a third world county here. Most 'stuff' (pax and freight) gets there eventually by flat bottomed boat - easy, cheap and reliable. S92 - WTF? How much is that going to cost each year?? And to achieve what?
Look - air passage to the Scillies is a luxury, nothing more, nothing less.
Islander - £3/week to run. £20/year insurance, £50/yr maintenance and you can throw it away after 10years and get another one.

You know it makes sense................(or HS2 could overshoot a little, perhaps

[SARWannabe]

If the Cornwall/Scillies councillors & operators were serious about improving the ‘weather resiliance’ the first step would be to find funding to make the whole corridor between Lands End and St Mary’s Class D and provide radar separation. As it stands the system doesn’t allow a stream of IFR traffic, a single IFR movement blocks off the whole corridor, and therefore renders an IFR flight unworkable around the other traffic.

Penzance Heliport will only operate in VFR conditions as their PinS approach is a ‘Proceed VFR’ approach with an OCA of 523ft, so in reality it requires a 600ft cloud ceiling. ‘Weather resilience’ against fog and low cloud (250ft) through IFR flight using modern technologies were nothing more than PR speak to gain public support for the planning process, the realities of which were predictably dropped once planning was granted. In fact - Penzance offers no added resilience. At least IFR flight is possible to Lands End in visibility well below VFR minima.

It all becomes academic when you have a public who think £230 for a return helicopter ticket is ‘more expensive than a flight to Malaga!’, and those who can afford it charter a 109 from Liskeard. Unfortunately the numbers don’t add up these days for a helicopter airline.

[rog747]

Even the FW air rickets from NQY and EXT to the islands are around £200-300 a pop return

[Fareastdriver]

Even the FW air rickets from NQY and EXT to the islands are around £200-300 a pop return

Flying from one place to another is dirt cheap. It's the landings that cost the money; take offs are free.

[cessnapete]

Originally Posted by Fareastdriver

Flying from one place to another is dirt cheap. It's the landings that cost the money; take offs are free.

Why don’t the airfields have a GPS/LPV instrument approach? Cat I limits with no extra airfield infrastructure required. A couple of second hand G430W in an Islander. As in USA many hundreds in operation at uncontrolled airfields.
Oh wait a minute the CAA are involved!!

[SARWannabe]

Originally Posted by cessnapete

Why don’t the airfields have a GPS/LPV instrument approach? Cat I limits with no extra airfield infrastructure required. A couple of second hand G430W in an Islander. As in USA many hundreds in operation at uncontrolled airfields.
Oh wait a minute the CAA are involved!!

Lands End does have GNSS approaches to all 4 runways. The DH are all higher than necessary (around 400ft vs 250ft), and only one is available for use in IMC because the CAA want to see a certain amount of utilisation and traffic integration before approving IMC usage to the lower LPV minima. However, the fixed wing never use them, and the helicopters couldn’t use them that often because when you go IFR you block the whole corridor in the absence of radar for separation, so the ‘trial’ essentially ended and needed to be restarted before approval is granted. I’m not sure whether it has restarted.

St Mary’s just has a trusty old NDB.

[cessnapete]

Originally Posted by SARWannabe

Lands End does have GNSS approaches to all 4 runways. The DH are all higher than necessary (around 400ft vs 250ft), and only one is available for use in IMC because the CAA want to see a certain amount of utilisation and traffic integration before approving IMC usage to the lower LPV minima. However, the fixed wing never use them, and the helicopters couldn’t use them that often because when you go IFR you block the whole corridor in the absence of radar for separation, so the ‘trial’ essentially ended and needed to be restarted before approval is granted. I’m not sure whether it has restarted.

St Mary’s just has a trusty old NDB.

Thats confirmed then, OK until the CAA get involved!

Whats an NDB?

[Thomas coupling]

A non-disclosure clause. But spelled wrongly

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Originally Posted by cessnapete

Thats confirmed then, OK until the CAA get involved!

Cessnapete, maybe you would like to put your families on an aircraft that operates IFR approaches without any form of regulation or conformance but I would decline. That's what the CAA do! They protect numpties from operating willy-nilly in clouds thinking they know what they are doing. If you want to spend your flying career trashing the CAA then hand in your licence that they gave you!

[Boslandew]

Originally Posted by Thomas coupling

And what's wrong with using an Islander for instance. A third the cost, less than half the running costs and can fly in much worse weather than the humble helicopter? Carries loads more too. Or for that matter what about a 2nd hand Shorts 360?

Skybus do use Islanders. The problem is that they have to operate from Lands End airfield which is 400 ft above sea-level and is frequently in cloud and fog. Theycan't fly in 'much worse weather' than helicopters. The whole crux of the matter is that helicopters operate from Penzance at sea-level and could and again will be able to operate IFR when the cloud is 300 ft above sea-level. Even with the most advantageous limits probable at Lands End with GPS approaches, they will need a cloud base of 700 ft above sea level. That 400 ft difference is what makes helicopters from Penzance so much more reliable than the fixed-wing service from Lands End.

[Boslandew]

SAR Wannabe


Not so. IFR approach limits at Penzance were 250ft AMSL cloud base and 900 metres visibility, That was using a complicated approach based on Decca, later GPS. One of the leading ATC experts in Europe recently informed me that there is no reason that will not again be possible for the new service. Even with the best possible approach limits expected at Lands End, probably 250/300 ft above airfield level, they will still need a 700 AMSL cloud base to operate.

[Boslandew]

SAR Wannabe

Sorry but the old service flew IFR services quite routinely between Penzance and the Scillies. I regularly flew six return trips IFR in a morning or afternoon with an instrument approach at each end. It did not block the whole corridor due to separation because we operated with Culdrose radar keeping an eye on us. St Mary's has an NDB but it also had and will have again an instrument approach using Decca originally and then GPS with a DH of 250 feet AMSL

The problem with IF approaches into Lands End is that even if DH's of 250/300 above the airfield are eventually approved that equates to a cloud base of 650/700ft AMSL and it so often isn't. Even then an approach into the prevailing westerly wind requires the aircraft to fly east six miles past Lands End to join then six miles on the approach adding 12 miles to a 28 mile sector. The helicopter approaches are joined directly from the en route track.