Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

Royal Navy Rescue

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Royal Navy Rescue

Old 26th Sep 2017, 08:27
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wales
Posts: 464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Perhaps you can supply some instances of the RN 'killing survivors',
Yes I can supply several but your puerile response is both tedious and typical RN. Fastnet 79, when the RAF RCC's were told "keep out, this is a navy show' is one that sticks in my mind when we saw on TV pleas from Cdr Air Culdrose for ANY helo crews to report for duty, then watched while single strops were dangled over survivors who couldn't reach them whilst being filmed by a second navy cab with a camera crew? I had three professional (RAF) Wessex crews under my command which were refused permission, by the RN, to 'join their show'. Subsequently, after the medals and granite plaque at Sea Hawk, RN SAR assets were placed under RAF Opcon for future. Then of course there was Lyme Bay and single strop lifts, and Cecil Japan when a survivor was dropped. Be careful what you ask for FD2.
Al-bert is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2017, 08:56
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 9,662
Received 108 Likes on 51 Posts
FD2 - in the adult world, it is acceptable and often desirable to engage in discourse, whether it be banter or disagreement, without resorting to name-calling and personal insults - you and many other stern RN-defenders just don't seem to be able to get that, you throw your teddies out of the cot and hurl abuse at the first sign of criticism.

My point about SAR is, and has always been, that if you don't train for it, you are very likely to be more of a hazard trying to rescue someone. If you don't train for it, the 'red mist' descends and you are more likely to take unreasonable risks.

This is the very reason we taught our SAR crews to be able to say NO - it didn't happen very often but when it did, that decision was respected.

Counterpoint that with your argument that the Captain of the ship can make the helicopter crew launch in ridiculous conditions - the captain of the aircraft has an enormous duty of care to his own crew which outweighs the SOLAS pressure.

I got flamed previously on a SAR thread for mentioning the loss of a Lynx in the Channel which was launched in fog for a MoB - but that is exactly the situation that should be avoided by good aircraft captaincy as a result of training. No-one who has searched over the water in poor visibility, for a single person without safety equipment, would think it was a good idea but they went and very sadly didn't come back. You, presumably, would defend this action to the hilt rather than acknowledging the folly and waste of life.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2017, 10:05
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 3,680
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
OK, I'm sorry....didn't expect such a massive tail hook moment there
Just having a little nudge at my old friend Crab, who I worked with for several years - and I have to say he is a consumate professional with exceptional credentials.

The only problem is that he went and runied all that pent up talent by becoming......yes you've guessed it ...a fricking CRAB FFS.

Never mind, can't all be versatile and flexible masters of ones' trade, can one

Can we swiftly move on and stay calm
Thomas coupling is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2017, 11:04
  #24 (permalink)  
FD2
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Elsewhere
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Al-bert

Did you ever investigate why the RN refused your offer? I'm quite sure mud can be slung in both directions and perhaps you ought to read my post more thoroughly before issuing silly 'warnings'. You seem to be very bitter about it even now. People sometimes get things wrong and perfect hindsight is always a marvellous thing. I am in thrall to the RAF's less puerile and/or tedious approach to inter-service rivalry.

Crab

I think it is admirable that you stick to your guns, even if I can't agree with you, but if you re-read my post you will see that I said 'hard to resist' not impossible and that I hope things are different now. Would you have had the station commander literally (in its proper sense) breathing down your neck when you made the (occasional) decision not to fly? Not so easy when you are very junior and in command of your first ship's flight.

No doubt, as TC has said, you are a consummate professional, but even perfect pilots can be wrong at times.

And this really is 'out'.
FD2 is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2017, 11:15
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 9,662
Received 108 Likes on 51 Posts
Would you have had the station commander literally (in its proper sense) breathing down your neck when you made the (occasional) decision not to fly?
No, remember that we had a crew of 4 and any decision not to go would have, generally, to be agreed by all. Additionally, any decision would have to be justified to the ARCCK.

Even in the situation of a first-tour Op Captain, it would be unusual, but not impossible, to have all 4 members with the same low level of experience.

It still all comes down to training and I have met some excellent RN Lynx crews in the Falklands who knew when to say no to the Senior Officers bright ideas club so things probably are even better now.

but even perfect pilots can be wrong at times.
I am far from perfect and quite capable of being wrong but in this case I don't believe I am.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2017, 18:51
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wales
Posts: 464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
FD2
Did you ever investigate why the RN refused your offer?
I'm sure that SRCC (Mountwise as was) did investigate, as it was they who 'offered our services' and relayed the Naval response that it was 'their show' - the Fastnet that is.

BTW, we were only one unit, C Flt 22 Sqn RAF Valley, which could have responded. B Flt 202 at Brawdy and the newly formed SKTU, actually at Culdrose, with brand new Sea King HAR 3 and a fully operational crew, were also turned down by the glory hunters.
As a yachtsman and a professional SAR pilot I was/am appalled at the RN's amateur approach to SAR back then - damned right I'm bitter. The RN seemed to wallow in inter-service rivalry and I assume that the reason they came under RAF RCC opcon subsequent to the Fastnet was due to lessons learned.
Al-bert is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2017, 12:11
  #27 (permalink)  
FD2
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Elsewhere
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Al-bert

I think that the 'glory hunters' jibe was a rather unworthy and cheap shot but I hope you feel better for having got it off your chest - 38 years is a long time to feel so bitter. To think that all this anger was stirred up by a snarky remark about medals for a straightforward winching job!
FD2 is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2017, 19:54
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: UK
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Is it all finished? I just bought another bucket of popcorn.
cyclic is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.