Missing Twin Squirrel: Wales/Ireland
Hi V F ..
I have huge adminiration for what you do and I accept all you say above . This is not something we really want to get into ....ever !! I just wanted to emphasise that IF it happens ... Don't give up hope . You don't have to try to punch up into it as a last ditch effort , but just slow right right down and just keep visual. That would , and has been my preferred choice ( my plan C if everything went to hell ) over the last 35 years of flying .
Good luck to you out there and safe flying as always ✌️
I have huge adminiration for what you do and I accept all you say above . This is not something we really want to get into ....ever !! I just wanted to emphasise that IF it happens ... Don't give up hope . You don't have to try to punch up into it as a last ditch effort , but just slow right right down and just keep visual. That would , and has been my preferred choice ( my plan C if everything went to hell ) over the last 35 years of flying .
Good luck to you out there and safe flying as always ✌️
G'day nigelh......too right & thanks mate. Yep don't ever give up, never do what Your not sure about & what I didn't add before - I do have a plan B & plan C; I was watching behind me more than ahead where the weather was better behind, so could always turn around to bug out & there was lots of places to land along the way if I got uncomfortable 
Stay Safe...Stay happy
Stay Safe...Stay happy
The crash site is very familiar. I know the whole of N Wales like the back of my hand, flown over and in it for 13 years. Even with the benefit of police easements and NVG, it is a VERY inhospitable environment. If the dark or the low cloud doesn't get you, the turbulence will!
Some have come on here asking a variety of questions, here is the answer to some of them:
The national park is littered with wreckage from decades of flying through them. Lots snuffed it coasting in and trying to get home during the war.
Many recent stoofs caused by private flyers departing the midlands and heading for Ireland. Several have maintained their cruise altitude way down south, thinking "x" thousands of feet above terra firma is fine for the whole trip, only to clip the tops of the Snowdon range.
Many have appraoched the range at a relatively low level (1000 - 2000') only to find they are forced into cloud if they continue and then climb into IMC - and die violently because there is nothing on this earth that frightens an inexperienced / non current pilot in a helicopter - like inadvertent IMC. The AAIB reports are littered with these sorts of crashes.
The problem with Snowdon is that once in there amongst the hills - if you are forced to either climb or land, you can't do the latter due to the hostile terrain. [See crash site]. So even if the guy could partially see out, he was stuffed for a landing and either tried to push on or go IMC. (At which stage it was game over).
If I knew I was going into the hills in poor weather or at night, I would plan to arrive at 5000' plus and then decend with visual references.
A warning to all those gung ho PPL's: If you don't have a s a minimum - an IMC rating and have retained IMC currency (suggest every week) then going IMC is probably your last activity as a mortal!
The switched on PPL, is the one who avoids bad weather like the plague.
I went to one crash site (first on scene) Bell 206 still on fire. 4 on board) where they were coming back from the races in Ireland. 5 minutes before the pilot commenced a "return to target" manouevre due to a wall of cloud ahead of him as he approached rising ground, he was seen hovering in a farmers yard @ 10'. He never landed but pressed on - killing all onboard.
What goes thru these peoples minds - does piloting a helicopter attract certain gung ho people?
Some have come on here asking a variety of questions, here is the answer to some of them:
The national park is littered with wreckage from decades of flying through them. Lots snuffed it coasting in and trying to get home during the war.
Many recent stoofs caused by private flyers departing the midlands and heading for Ireland. Several have maintained their cruise altitude way down south, thinking "x" thousands of feet above terra firma is fine for the whole trip, only to clip the tops of the Snowdon range.
Many have appraoched the range at a relatively low level (1000 - 2000') only to find they are forced into cloud if they continue and then climb into IMC - and die violently because there is nothing on this earth that frightens an inexperienced / non current pilot in a helicopter - like inadvertent IMC. The AAIB reports are littered with these sorts of crashes.
The problem with Snowdon is that once in there amongst the hills - if you are forced to either climb or land, you can't do the latter due to the hostile terrain. [See crash site]. So even if the guy could partially see out, he was stuffed for a landing and either tried to push on or go IMC. (At which stage it was game over).
If I knew I was going into the hills in poor weather or at night, I would plan to arrive at 5000' plus and then decend with visual references.
A warning to all those gung ho PPL's: If you don't have a s a minimum - an IMC rating and have retained IMC currency (suggest every week) then going IMC is probably your last activity as a mortal!
The switched on PPL, is the one who avoids bad weather like the plague.
I went to one crash site (first on scene) Bell 206 still on fire. 4 on board) where they were coming back from the races in Ireland. 5 minutes before the pilot commenced a "return to target" manouevre due to a wall of cloud ahead of him as he approached rising ground, he was seen hovering in a farmers yard @ 10'. He never landed but pressed on - killing all onboard.
What goes thru these peoples minds - does piloting a helicopter attract certain gung ho people?
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Couldn't of said it better TC. Most jobs over here in Canada in the Rocks, Tourngats, high Artic require an approved mountain course. Also very big on annual-low vis training. If you're a PPL with neither mountain training and low vis training, stay away is my advice. They can and will bite Big Time.
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does piloting a helicopter attract certain gung ho people?
TC . Completely agree . In all my years I think I have only actually flown straight over the top of these mountains about half a dozen times . Quite often it has looked tempting but I think would have bounced the pax around quite a lot ! Sadly it appears that no one has any suggestions to try to help the situation. Personally I will get my son , who has ppl(h) , some experience flights into bad viz to get a feel of what it's like .
Then get him to make decisions as to where to land and when to turn back . Lastly I would let him fly into full IMC and realise it's not a place he ever wants to be without the right tools to hand . I know that worked for me all those years ago and that was in a Bell 47 !! Sadly this may not be an option for everyone else out there ....
Ps Before DB froths at the mouth I confirm that a fully rated IFR pilot will do this and not me !!
Then get him to make decisions as to where to land and when to turn back . Lastly I would let him fly into full IMC and realise it's not a place he ever wants to be without the right tools to hand . I know that worked for me all those years ago and that was in a Bell 47 !! Sadly this may not be an option for everyone else out there ....
Ps Before DB froths at the mouth I confirm that a fully rated IFR pilot will do this and not me !!
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Nigel. I will try to minimise the frothing, but it gets harder every time another needless accident sends a bunch of innocent people off for an early bath. Helicopters are great fun and hugely sociable machines and I absolutely get why PAX love them so much. However the pilots behind these kinds of terrible events need protection from their own sense of immortality.
The best advice I would offer your son is stick a tent, sleeping bag, some emergency rations and a good book in the baggage hold. Landing off piste knowing you have a portable home is a great motivator. Many press on dogged by the thought of a cold lonely night practising their survival skills is their only option.
Good luck to your son and keep him safe!
The best advice I would offer your son is stick a tent, sleeping bag, some emergency rations and a good book in the baggage hold. Landing off piste knowing you have a portable home is a great motivator. Many press on dogged by the thought of a cold lonely night practising their survival skills is their only option.
Good luck to your son and keep him safe!
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What goes thru these peoples minds - does piloting a helicopter attract certain gung ho people?
I once arrived at an airfield up north in a fully IFR equipped helicopter to hear a R-44 calling up prior to departing. Hearing this, I advised ATC that the weather we had just flown through was very poor (low cloud, poor vis, heavy rain, blustery winds). It was soon going to become dark, too. This was passed on to the R-44 pilot, who obviously didn't seem to think this was a problem because he took off anyway (I wouldn't have done, even in our machine). He crashed before reaching his destination.
DB ...very good point re the warm clothes , tent etc . As said before i have plonked myself down a number of times in strange places to wait for the weather . I nearly always take some boots , big coat etc just in case . Last April i didnt bother , set off from S Coast to Yorkshire with just enough time to get in before dark and hit snow !! Not just a little ..a full blown blizzard . V cold , very wet feet when i got home ....so ..
Very good point . I will pass it on from you !!
Very good point . I will pass it on from you !!
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ST - that is a mindset issue, not something limited to PPL. Check-out the AAIB database and you will see similar arrogant, or over-confident, calls also being made by CPL and ATPL holders and, given the material you are reading from, that the consequences thereof are no respecter of license type.
A warning to all those gung ho PPL's: If you don't have a s a minimum - an IMC rating and have retained IMC currency (suggest every week) then going IMC is probably your last activity as a mortal!
The switched on PPL, is the one who avoids bad weather like the plague.
Gullibell . 👏👏 It seems to be just you and me thinking that is a good idea to be part of the course and not just something that maybe you and I were lucky enough to get !
In fact it appears everyone else has NO ideas other than more rules that don't work ...
In fact it appears everyone else has NO ideas other than more rules that don't work ...
Agreed but then you'd have to have an instructor with an IR and an IFR aircraft to do it in legally.
Given how many people learn on R22s and are taught by hours-building junior instructors, that might be difficult to guarantee.
Plus you need the right weather to do it in.
Given how many people learn on R22s and are taught by hours-building junior instructors, that might be difficult to guarantee.
Plus you need the right weather to do it in.
As much as I'm one for advocating that a safety conscious mindset begins with knowledge and compliance with the rules under which we operate, the fact of the matter is "operational flexibility" intervenes which, for whatever reason, blurs the lines between what you can, and perhaps what you shouldn't, do. The pressure to get the job done, whether that pressure is real or implied, whether it comes from the employer, or the client, or from colleagues, or simply from oneself. The lines do get blurred out there in the operational space. That is, until one day you're faced with a situation that crystalizes those blurred lines into sharp reality and you wished you'd made a better choice earlier.
In the case of this twin-squirrel accident, the 5 victims were all family, heading to a family wedding. It is very sad and regrettable that they ended up where they did. Ultimately, the decisions that were made that put them where they were can't be taken back. Aviation can be unforgiving, sometimes you don't get a 2nd chance.
In the case of this twin-squirrel accident, the 5 victims were all family, heading to a family wedding. It is very sad and regrettable that they ended up where they did. Ultimately, the decisions that were made that put them where they were can't be taken back. Aviation can be unforgiving, sometimes you don't get a 2nd chance.
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ST - that is a mindset issue, not something limited to PPL. Check-out the AAIB database and you will see similar arrogant, or over-confident, calls also being made by CPL and ATPL holders and, given the material you are reading from, that the consequences thereof are no respecter of license type.
I can assure you I have been reading the AAIB reports for many years.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Agreed but then you'd have to have an instructor with an IR and an IFR aircraft to do it in legally.
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Yes, and this is the problem. To get training value out of it you really need to do inadvertent IMC in cloud, and not in VMC with foggles. I've had experienced pilots but with newly minted IR, where for the whole of their IFR training never went close to a cloud, on day 1 of the IFR job as soon as they get into cloud for the first time things are totally out of control within about 30 seconds.
Last edited by birmingham; 4th Apr 2017 at 16:23.
I know this is thread drift but if it means just one newbie sitting up and learning something that may save his life one day...read on.
I'm not sure I understand what Nigelh is saying when he mentions that we already have enough rules so what else is out there to protect the new guy on the block??
Scud running or mountain flying in bad weather or going IIMC are all recipes for disaster. Asking some 'mate' who tells you he's done it before - to demonstrate each of these will serve no purpose and if you won't or can't accept this, you need to read on.
Those who understand, have already transitioned to becoming a competent and professional aviator.
Here's why:
Apart from the fact scud running is dangerous (even illegal in some circumstances)....(ask the pilot who crashed in Vauxhall), it benefits no-one. Not you, nor the guy coming the other way thinking the same tactic.
Flying in mountains in bad wx is an emergency and should only be attempted by those who put their own lives at risk to save others.
IIMC is the quickest way to CFIT for inexperienced pilots.
Asking your mate or employing an IRI and borrowing an IFR cab to 'experience' IIMC serves no purpose because controlled flight in IMC is an art form which can only be sustained by constant, regular practice - atleast several hours of actual monthly 'hands on' to retain your scan and SA. A demo, every other year for a few minutes is a complete and utter waste of everyone's time and money.
So a partial response to: "what;s out there" other than the rules which forbid you from doing any of this, I would suggest a cautious knowledgeable grounded attitude to aviation in general, starting with no experience but lots of rules to keep you on the straight and narrow and eventually as you gain more experience and quals - practice - loads and loads of practice in a safe environment. This means applying to go on courses like IMC, mountain flying, display, water landings etc etc, whatever makes you curious.
Remember the saying: There are plenty of bold pilots and plenty of old pilots but hardly any old AND bold pilots.
Helicopters can get you into places FW dream of but there's the rub......it takes additional effort to get you out of there, too. That's why a helicopter pilot tends to explore a greater range of expertise than a FW pilot might need to, I would suggest. Helo flying is 3D, FW is 2D. (most of the time)
I'm not sure I understand what Nigelh is saying when he mentions that we already have enough rules so what else is out there to protect the new guy on the block??
Scud running or mountain flying in bad weather or going IIMC are all recipes for disaster. Asking some 'mate' who tells you he's done it before - to demonstrate each of these will serve no purpose and if you won't or can't accept this, you need to read on.
Those who understand, have already transitioned to becoming a competent and professional aviator.
Here's why:
Apart from the fact scud running is dangerous (even illegal in some circumstances)....(ask the pilot who crashed in Vauxhall), it benefits no-one. Not you, nor the guy coming the other way thinking the same tactic.
Flying in mountains in bad wx is an emergency and should only be attempted by those who put their own lives at risk to save others.
IIMC is the quickest way to CFIT for inexperienced pilots.
Asking your mate or employing an IRI and borrowing an IFR cab to 'experience' IIMC serves no purpose because controlled flight in IMC is an art form which can only be sustained by constant, regular practice - atleast several hours of actual monthly 'hands on' to retain your scan and SA. A demo, every other year for a few minutes is a complete and utter waste of everyone's time and money.
So a partial response to: "what;s out there" other than the rules which forbid you from doing any of this, I would suggest a cautious knowledgeable grounded attitude to aviation in general, starting with no experience but lots of rules to keep you on the straight and narrow and eventually as you gain more experience and quals - practice - loads and loads of practice in a safe environment. This means applying to go on courses like IMC, mountain flying, display, water landings etc etc, whatever makes you curious.
Remember the saying: There are plenty of bold pilots and plenty of old pilots but hardly any old AND bold pilots.
Helicopters can get you into places FW dream of but there's the rub......it takes additional effort to get you out of there, too. That's why a helicopter pilot tends to explore a greater range of expertise than a FW pilot might need to, I would suggest. Helo flying is 3D, FW is 2D. (most of the time)
That is just daft !! Why is this the case ? I could show them IFR almost daily in Yorkshire !!
Edit ... This is in response to IR pilots not getting to ever fly in actual IR .... Not to TC .!!
TC .... I hear you but those of us who like the idea of taking a new ppl " inadvertent IFR " do not think they will learn anything about flying IFR !! I think the point is that they very likely don't know just how bad it would be for them . When I did it I landed in the certain knowledge that I would be toast flying IFR for any length of time ..... and I actually found instrument flying really quite easy !!!! ( hood )
Edit ... This is in response to IR pilots not getting to ever fly in actual IR .... Not to TC .!!
TC .... I hear you but those of us who like the idea of taking a new ppl " inadvertent IFR " do not think they will learn anything about flying IFR !! I think the point is that they very likely don't know just how bad it would be for them . When I did it I landed in the certain knowledge that I would be toast flying IFR for any length of time ..... and I actually found instrument flying really quite easy !!!! ( hood )
Is that IFR as in I Follow Roads/Rivers/Railways?