AW139 Training mode
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: JPN
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AW139 Training mode
When training mode was deactivated with AW139 I saw the PI goes into red band and digital number of PI shows 121%.
When using training mode TQ Limiter mast be used and it limits PI up to 114%.
I wonder if PI really gpes up to 121% when training mode is deactivted?
When using training mode TQ Limiter mast be used and it limits PI up to 114%.
I wonder if PI really gpes up to 121% when training mode is deactivted?
Flying another AW family member.
When we use the training mode and we de-activate it in flight, we make sure to lower collective to a predetermined number on the FLI.
We also have a weight limit in force for using training mode, preventing unwanted exceedance of real OEI limitations.
When we use the training mode and we de-activate it in flight, we make sure to lower collective to a predetermined number on the FLI.
We also have a weight limit in force for using training mode, preventing unwanted exceedance of real OEI limitations.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not a fan of the AW139 training switch. It bites instructors if they relax and it's not representative training. Because it caps available power at 70/70 it droops Nr at a simulated 140 OEI where as for real with no alt holds you have 160. This is roughly the equivalent of simulating an aircraft 500 kg heavier than the one you are in. But by far it's worst feature is the safety function that kicks out the switch if Nr is drooped to 87%. In itself that is a good thing but the way it restores power is not. The training switch kicks out and the EECs instantly respond by trying to restore Nr. They accelerate the engines against no resistance until they smash into the falling Nr. It is a very violent application of power and it's no surprise that this can result in transient Tq spikes
Join Date: May 2011
Location: In Communicado
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The OP did not give enough information to answer his question.
Was the PI spike on both engines or just one side?
Was OEI TRNG manually deselected or did it do it on its own?
What was the Nr when OEI TRNG disengaged?
Was the PI spike on both engines or just one side?
Was OEI TRNG manually deselected or did it do it on its own?
What was the Nr when OEI TRNG disengaged?
The training switch kicks out and the EECs instantly respond by trying to restore Nr. They accelerate the engines against no resistance until they smash into the falling Nr. It is a very violent application of power and it's no surprise that this can result in transient Tq spikes
Join Date: May 2011
Location: In Communicado
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
212 - You are correct.
The issue is that when the operator uses too much collective (power demand beyond what 70/70 % PI can deliver), the Nr droops. When Nr gets below 87%, OEI TRNG is automatically disengaged. Yes, the engines are obviously driving the MGB, so there is no "smash into" and there is no equivalent to the "blow away" you mention. The EECs are trying to get Nf/Nr back to 100% by providing more fuel. What you may see, depending upon Nr and collective position, is a momentary PI/Tq transient beyond 114/114%. Without the protection of the Tq Limiter, a major overtorque would occur, potentially as high as 160/160% PI.
The OP has not given sufficient detail to explain his particular experience.
The issue is that when the operator uses too much collective (power demand beyond what 70/70 % PI can deliver), the Nr droops. When Nr gets below 87%, OEI TRNG is automatically disengaged. Yes, the engines are obviously driving the MGB, so there is no "smash into" and there is no equivalent to the "blow away" you mention. The EECs are trying to get Nf/Nr back to 100% by providing more fuel. What you may see, depending upon Nr and collective position, is a momentary PI/Tq transient beyond 114/114%. Without the protection of the Tq Limiter, a major overtorque would occur, potentially as high as 160/160% PI.
The OP has not given sufficient detail to explain his particular experience.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: JPN
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With respect to HLCPTR's question
Was the PI spike on both engines or just one side?
I saw both engines PI going up to red band.
Was OEI TRNG manually deselected or did it do it on its own?
What was the Nr when OEI TRNG disengaged?
Automatically disengaged as Nr falls below 87%.
The question is that Engines actually deliver power above 114% while OEI TRNG Mode is disengaed but TQ Limiter is still ON.
Was the PI spike on both engines or just one side?
I saw both engines PI going up to red band.
Was OEI TRNG manually deselected or did it do it on its own?
What was the Nr when OEI TRNG disengaged?
Automatically disengaged as Nr falls below 87%.
The question is that Engines actually deliver power above 114% while OEI TRNG Mode is disengaed but TQ Limiter is still ON.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: JPN
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TRNG Mode was off but TQ Limiter was still on. So PI must be limited up to 114% as a function of TQ Limiter.
Twinbird, 114% per side IS in the red band. Anything above 110% TO power IS in the red band.
100% max continuous, 110% Max TO.
I hope you guys were working in accordance with the OEI training mode weight limitations set forth in the appropriate RFM supplements.
100% max continuous, 110% Max TO.
I hope you guys were working in accordance with the OEI training mode weight limitations set forth in the appropriate RFM supplements.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: In Communicado
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TB,
The system is designed to prevent a major overtorque but, by allowing the Nr to droop that low, you put the aircraft in a critical condition. Although EEC fuel scheduling is designed to provide 114/114% max, you should understand that when you cause such a significant demand for more power, the way the Tq sensors detect torque will result in the indications appear to "overshoot". That is simply a very momentary overshoot in the indication.
I suspect that the Tq only displayed those high values for a second or so then stabilized at a slightly lower value. Is that what you saw or were your eyeballs so large that you did not notice the details?
Regardless, did you report it and what was the determination once the CMC and the engine DCU data was downloaded?
The system is designed to prevent a major overtorque but, by allowing the Nr to droop that low, you put the aircraft in a critical condition. Although EEC fuel scheduling is designed to provide 114/114% max, you should understand that when you cause such a significant demand for more power, the way the Tq sensors detect torque will result in the indications appear to "overshoot". That is simply a very momentary overshoot in the indication.
I suspect that the Tq only displayed those high values for a second or so then stabilized at a slightly lower value. Is that what you saw or were your eyeballs so large that you did not notice the details?
Regardless, did you report it and what was the determination once the CMC and the engine DCU data was downloaded?
Some interesting notes in the FCOM section on this mode - TB do you have this, because if not I suggest you request it from LH?
Careful preparation and pre-flight briefing is essential to achieve maximum
safety and value during Cat A training flights. In particular, training
flights carry the possibility of errors and incorrect actions by
trainees and Cat A training is no different. It is most important that
instructors have a clear abort strategy to recover from manoeuvres
that go wrong for whatever reason. The available abort strategies are
discussed below, along with general guidelines for the planning, briefing
and conduct of Cat A training flights.
safety and value during Cat A training flights. In particular, training
flights carry the possibility of errors and incorrect actions by
trainees and Cat A training is no different. It is most important that
instructors have a clear abort strategy to recover from manoeuvres
that go wrong for whatever reason. The available abort strategies are
discussed below, along with general guidelines for the planning, briefing
and conduct of Cat A training flights.
Carefully brief the abort procedure in the event of non-optimum
conduct of a manoeuvre. Also brief the indications that would
require use of the abort procedure. Indications of a potentially
unsuccessful manoeuvre could include for example: early and
excessive loss of NR, higher than expected rate of descent, incorrect
application of controls, incorrect aircraft attitudes, student not
following briefed procedure, etc. Training inevitably carries the
chance of less than ideal handling or other problems, and an
abort strategy correctly briefed is important.
conduct of a manoeuvre. Also brief the indications that would
require use of the abort procedure. Indications of a potentially
unsuccessful manoeuvre could include for example: early and
excessive loss of NR, higher than expected rate of descent, incorrect
application of controls, incorrect aircraft attitudes, student not
following briefed procedure, etc. Training inevitably carries the
chance of less than ideal handling or other problems, and an
abort strategy correctly briefed is important.
Using the Torque
Limiter button takes away the Torque Limit function, which can
lead to a greater chance of AEO over torque if the button is used
when NR is low as both engines work at the maximum rate to
accelerate the rotor back to 102%. The automatic disengagement
of the Training Mode at 87% is intended as a final opportunity for
the aircraft to ‘save itself’ and should not be considered the primary
means to disengage Training Mode. Instructors should use
the Torque Limiter button or Training Switch as the primary means
of disengagement and should use one of these methods immediately
if the safe outcome of the intended training manoeuvre is in
doubt at any stage.
Limiter button takes away the Torque Limit function, which can
lead to a greater chance of AEO over torque if the button is used
when NR is low as both engines work at the maximum rate to
accelerate the rotor back to 102%. The automatic disengagement
of the Training Mode at 87% is intended as a final opportunity for
the aircraft to ‘save itself’ and should not be considered the primary
means to disengage Training Mode. Instructors should use
the Torque Limiter button or Training Switch as the primary means
of disengagement and should use one of these methods immediately
if the safe outcome of the intended training manoeuvre is in
doubt at any stage.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: JPN
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I thought above 114% of TQ never happened with TQ Limiter ON, but momentaly overshoot might be happened as described by HLCPTR. I'll ask mechanic to download the data and try to get FCOM from Leonard.
Thank all of u very much for really usefu information.
Thank all of u very much for really usefu information.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Africa
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the training manual:
On the AW139 helicopter, the torque limiter function is set to OFF as default.
If the pilot wants to engage the torque limiter function, the TQ LIM push-button
on the collective grip, must be pressed. After selection, the green advisory
message TQ LIMITER ON will be displayed in the CAS window.
When the torque limiter function is set to ON, the AEO total torque will be limited
to be combined torque value of TQ 228%. The OEI engine torque will not be affected.
When pressed a second time, the torque limiter function is deactivated and full power is available from engines.
To perform the OEI TRAINING, the TQ LIM function must be set to ON.
On the AW139 helicopter, the torque limiter function is set to OFF as default.
If the pilot wants to engage the torque limiter function, the TQ LIM push-button
on the collective grip, must be pressed. After selection, the green advisory
message TQ LIMITER ON will be displayed in the CAS window.
When the torque limiter function is set to ON, the AEO total torque will be limited
to be combined torque value of TQ 228%. The OEI engine torque will not be affected.
When pressed a second time, the torque limiter function is deactivated and full power is available from engines.
To perform the OEI TRAINING, the TQ LIM function must be set to ON.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: On the green bit near the blue wobbly stuff
Posts: 674
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
So following deactivation of OEI training mode, if one engine accelerated faster than the other, it is possible that there was a momentary split in the Tq values, with one engine reaching 121 (and the other presumably at 107) before balancing again at 114/114.
Sounds like something to save for the simulator, thus avoid any expensive mistakes.
These mind boggling modern computerised helicopters, we never had any issues like this to deal with in the old days doing single engine training in the 212.
These mind boggling modern computerised helicopters, we never had any issues like this to deal with in the old days doing single engine training in the 212.