Captain on new type
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Joined: Jun 2007
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From: N.Africa for now
Captain on new type
Might I ask for the considered opinion of the professional experts online ?
How many hours would you expect an experienced (3000 hrs ) multi engine offshore captain to have on a new type before he was considered a safe pair of hands flying on the line with passengers ?
Thanks B.G
How many hours would you expect an experienced (3000 hrs ) multi engine offshore captain to have on a new type before he was considered a safe pair of hands flying on the line with passengers ?
Thanks B.G
Joined: May 2002
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From: Downeast
First....lets define "Safe", then lets define "new type".....then we can begin to answer the Hours thing.
Bear in mind.....in reality there are some folks that are never going to be really "Safe" no matter how many hours they accumulate as Accident Reports confirm every now and then.
Bear in mind.....in reality there are some folks that are never going to be really "Safe" no matter how many hours they accumulate as Accident Reports confirm every now and then.
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From: Location, location - is very important when buying a house.
Way too many variables there I think. Plenty of AAIB reports and such of experienced captains not coming home. If the CP deems a captain a safe pair of hands to fly a new type then that should suffice..all other things considered. Additional experience will come then in the aircraft rather than any captaincy skills. I imagine not many companies can afford to give their captains too much non-revenue flying to build up new type hours before going on line.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: N.Africa for now
Thanks for quick replies gents, types are 76 C+ onto AW139 .
Defining safe is very subjective but also has to account for who is sitting next to them be they a raw copilot with 300 hrs total time or an experienced nearly ready captain who has been flying the type for a considerable number of hours.
100 hours including sim time is what OGP says but I wanted to check in with the wider community before putting my foot firmly in mouth .
Cheers
B.G
Defining safe is very subjective but also has to account for who is sitting next to them be they a raw copilot with 300 hrs total time or an experienced nearly ready captain who has been flying the type for a considerable number of hours.
100 hours including sim time is what OGP says but I wanted to check in with the wider community before putting my foot firmly in mouth .
Cheers
B.G
Joined: Oct 1999
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From: Den Haag
IOGP 390 Appendix 5C makes provision for 50 hours, subject to approval by the client and following the TNA requirements listed.
(http://www.ogp.org.uk/pubs/390.pdf)
(http://www.ogp.org.uk/pubs/390.pdf)
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From: Canada
Hours are largely irrelevant ...
.... train to competency.
Some will "get it" quite quickly, some will after period of time, some never will.
It is impossible to set an exact number of hours on how long this process will take.
I would add that "safety" is a continuum, not a binary concept.
Some will "get it" quite quickly, some will after period of time, some never will.
It is impossible to set an exact number of hours on how long this process will take.
I would add that "safety" is a continuum, not a binary concept.
Last edited by oleary; 24th October 2016 at 19:56. Reason: Add safety comment.
Thread Starter
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From: N.Africa for now
Oleary couldn't agree more and we have the same problems with operations people regarding competency and experience and some of them never get there either.
My conundrum in this instance is a company asking for permission to bring in new pilots on our contracted aircraft and without having any knowledge of the people, their capabilities or flying skills I have to decide to approve or not. Recently I have been made more aware of the decision making process because the same company has been trying to replace very experienced expats with local cadets fresh out of training which makes me very nervous obviously.
Its the same thought process when someone comes to me with an operational risk assessment that perhaps hasn't been properly thought through, I usually challenge them with " would you ask your children to do that job " likewise I have to think would I put my people in the helicopter with this guy because they are just as precious as my family are.
Anyway appreciate everyone's input and safe landings to all.
B.G
My conundrum in this instance is a company asking for permission to bring in new pilots on our contracted aircraft and without having any knowledge of the people, their capabilities or flying skills I have to decide to approve or not. Recently I have been made more aware of the decision making process because the same company has been trying to replace very experienced expats with local cadets fresh out of training which makes me very nervous obviously.
Its the same thought process when someone comes to me with an operational risk assessment that perhaps hasn't been properly thought through, I usually challenge them with " would you ask your children to do that job " likewise I have to think would I put my people in the helicopter with this guy because they are just as precious as my family are.
Anyway appreciate everyone's input and safe landings to all.
B.G
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Cornwall
Any use off flight hours as a metric these days is fraught with difficulty given the amount of falsification that is rife in our world. If you have 'owned' the pilot for those 100 hundred hours (maybe 50 for a non-complex type) then you have a good basis for moving forward with a good competency check in the sim being the final arbiter.
Of course when Competency Based Training comes - one day - we will have fewer problems answering Bladegrabber's question. Please allow me to fantasise.
G
Of course when Competency Based Training comes - one day - we will have fewer problems answering Bladegrabber's question. Please allow me to fantasise.
G
Joined: May 2002
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From: Wanaka, NZ
It's entirely the prerogative of the operator. I've been to a new country, in an unfamiliar role, and on a new aircraft type, and I was sent on my way single pilot on day 1. I've also been on operations where I have thousands of hours experience in the role, and on type, and still had to negotiate a thorough indoctrination as if I had no experience in either. I think going from experienced Captain on S76C+ to AW139, 50 hours on-type should just about cover it for operating command AW139. Predicated on a competency based assessment of course. At the other end of the spectrum, I've done annual checks on pilots with thousands of hours experience on type and sometimes I struggle to find reason to pass them co-pilot competent on the type they are supposedly familiar with, let alone attempting to get them up-to-speed on a new type.
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From: UK
Surely the only meaningful answer is "When he passes his final line check".
Curiously I had a major problem on the S61 which I transitioned to in a fairly normal manner and flew happily for six months or so on the N N Sea but when I went to the S sector I found 30 3 minute sectors too much to keep up with.
Subsequently a change from Boeing to the Dark Side - a massive change in culture and mindset - was a doddle. Incidentally of the hundreds who made that transition few had any real trouble and no one failed the course, even though some were 30 year Boeing people.
A Type rating isn't that big a deal.
Everyone is different.
Curiously I had a major problem on the S61 which I transitioned to in a fairly normal manner and flew happily for six months or so on the N N Sea but when I went to the S sector I found 30 3 minute sectors too much to keep up with.
Subsequently a change from Boeing to the Dark Side - a massive change in culture and mindset - was a doddle. Incidentally of the hundreds who made that transition few had any real trouble and no one failed the course, even though some were 30 year Boeing people.
A Type rating isn't that big a deal.
Everyone is different.
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From: Downeast
I guess we should also focus our comments for particular National Authorities and each regulatory regime we operate within.
Add in the particular segment of the industry we find ourselves operating within also would play a role.
If I move up from a Jet Ranger to a Huey....or from a Huey to a 212 but stay in the same "job/task"..... say Fire Fighting....how much difference is there between types really. Or if I am doing sight seeing and move from one type to another at the same operating base....how much time is required?
If I jump from Fire Fighting in a 212 and move on to an S-92 where IFR/IMC long distance Offshore Flying is done...and I have no experience in the 92, IMC, or offshore....how much is needed?
Sometimes it is the Type change that is the predominant issue, or the tasking, or the location, or even from one Authority to another or sometimes all of them combined.
Not to mention the Pilot....and how his abilities, experience, and skill level are involved.
I too have shown up at a place and both been handed the Keys and told to get after it....and have also been treated as if I were the newest Co-Pilot ever which was a cover for protecting Turf by those who knew some sort of secret handshake or held a particular kind of Passport.
Add in the particular segment of the industry we find ourselves operating within also would play a role.
If I move up from a Jet Ranger to a Huey....or from a Huey to a 212 but stay in the same "job/task"..... say Fire Fighting....how much difference is there between types really. Or if I am doing sight seeing and move from one type to another at the same operating base....how much time is required?
If I jump from Fire Fighting in a 212 and move on to an S-92 where IFR/IMC long distance Offshore Flying is done...and I have no experience in the 92, IMC, or offshore....how much is needed?
Sometimes it is the Type change that is the predominant issue, or the tasking, or the location, or even from one Authority to another or sometimes all of them combined.
Not to mention the Pilot....and how his abilities, experience, and skill level are involved.
I too have shown up at a place and both been handed the Keys and told to get after it....and have also been treated as if I were the newest Co-Pilot ever which was a cover for protecting Turf by those who knew some sort of secret handshake or held a particular kind of Passport.
