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AW139 crash in Kenya

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AW139 crash in Kenya

Old 11th Sep 2016, 06:17
  #41 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Bushrat View Post
Terrifying moment police helicopter crashes over slums in Nairobi

Found this online....it has some reasonably good stills capture from video...is it just me or is something missing from the third still?

Just the angle - still attached post impact

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Old 11th Sep 2016, 06:26
  #42 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Frying Pan View Post
Huey Racer..shock horror! I've been training Middle East pilots, and they have their position because of their uncle/father not because of any selection process. We'll be very unlikely to get past the culture difference, so we have to deal with it as best we can. The mitigating factor appears to be, accidents will happen, but on their patch. If a brand new 139 went down like that in the UK there would be many questions if not an enquiry as to why it happened.
Spot on Frying Pan.
So true, and be assured they will never made public any report on that.
I never saw in my career in those areas an CAA release or make public any incident investigation.
In their culture everything has to be hidden to not show how bad in aviation they're.
Looking from the big (aviation community) picture I compare them to a tick on a dog: only capable to bring or copy items (e.g. copies of JAR just renamed with country logo) from others but without any contribution to the aviation community like making public their papers (e.g. incident - accident reports).
If it will happen in the future I'll be extremely suspicious because they'e professional liars.
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Old 13th Sep 2016, 09:44
  #43 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by m32k View Post
MENA region is full of them.
Lots of 300hrs freshly FAA licensed (the easy way) jumped into AW139 just because their country is pushing "nationalization" program.
Not a Kenyan specific dodgy culture but seem instead widely spread in those part of world.
U bet m32k i've seen this nationalization program in other places in Africa and the consequences are 99% of time the same as in this case!...
You offer a slumdog a 'Ferrari' and it most surely will not last a DAY!
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Old 16th Sep 2016, 13:50
  #44 (permalink)  
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It seems that there is something of a smear campaign being undertaken throught The Nation against all parties but currently against Leonardo.

Recent reports have highlighted not so pertinent items like bad purchasing by the police in the past [the two-flight hour main rotors purchased for a Mi-17] and the use of fake components linked to the death of the former Internal Security minister and his deputy.

In a later attack on the aircraft supplier The Nation pointed out that chief executives of the manufacturer are in Italian jails over a scandal involving helicopter sales to India and they therefore linked the Nairobi crash and the corruption investigations as added pressure on the company and had led to the name change.

They also stated that the helicopter had only flown for 25 hours in the five months since it was bought.

Not sure if they dreamed up that figure or got it from a misunderstanding but that quoted figure of just 25 hours flight time over the last five months looks suspect. They would surely have needed way more than that to introduce 2-3 local pilots to a very complex airframe?

Has anyone noted those numbers anywhere other than in a news report?
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Old 16th Sep 2016, 14:28
  #45 (permalink)  
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I know for sure AW instructor had left the country couple of weeks before the crash because the training was over and the pilots where cleared to fly alone without the Muzungu Instructor.
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Old 20th Sep 2016, 01:03
  #46 (permalink)  
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You just couldn't even start to make this stuff up!

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Old 20th Sep 2016, 07:15
  #47 (permalink)  
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So, filtering the probable reality from the journalistic bol**cks in the article, it appears:

1. Hovering with a FD height hold mode engaged
2. Someone pulls the collective without depressing collective force trim release.
3. Collective subsequently let go, and is lowered by FD to regain the reference height. (As it should)
4. Helicopter starts vertical descent.
5. FD raises collective to reestablish height reference, helicopter enters VRS.
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Old 20th Sep 2016, 07:35
  #48 (permalink)  
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As someone trained that when one relies on a system it miraculously fails (thank you instructors), why rely on the AP for something as routine as HOGE? Surely this is something everyone is taught AP out and forms core flying skills?

Or is this yet another example of incorrect use of automation?

Last edited by nowherespecial; 20th Sep 2016 at 07:36. Reason: second para added
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Old 20th Sep 2016, 07:41
  #49 (permalink)  
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Because those "pilots" have close to zero experience, and would not be able to hover out of ground effect...no kidding....
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Old 20th Sep 2016, 11:08
  #50 (permalink)  
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We 'train' them, we tick the boxes, we get our money and we move on.

The ensuing problems is then theirs. They don't help themselves though by providing inadequate 'pilots' Most of them couldn't hover a mower.
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Old 20th Sep 2016, 12:09
  #51 (permalink)  
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I know, it's probably a rhetorical question, but why do you tick the boxes then ?
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Old 20th Sep 2016, 12:33
  #52 (permalink)  
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Apologies for answering a rhetorical question. But it's money. Contracts get awarded to schools that pass students. The big difference in this environment is that often the the 'pilot's' surname carries a lot more weight then their ability. The schools can't fail them, honour, family name, reputation and don't want to eject them from the training because it could end their contract! Thank god other countries have a more robust selection process.
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Old 20th Sep 2016, 13:20
  #53 (permalink)  
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Just out of curiosity, how do you hover a mower?
It seems to me that only very capable pilots may be able to do that, and apparently these kids were not up to par for that.
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Old 20th Sep 2016, 13:34
  #54 (permalink)  
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In my years as a simulator instructor, I found more simulator crashes were caused by pilots who had insufficient knowledge of advanced coupler modes than anything else. Autopilots are a powerful aid to pilots, but only if all aspects have been thoroughly taught during training and if the pilots maintain a thorough knowledge of the system through a mix of self study and continuation training from their training organisations. Real life is not just a computer game whose only consequences are having to reset a system.

It's my belief that insufficient time is given over to this on both the theory and practical side in both conversion and recurrent training. For the sake of a few extra hours of simulator training time offline and in a classroom, operators are trying to save money in the wrong place, especially when compared to the overall cost of obtaining and operating a very expensive, highly sophiscated airborne system. In the end this attitude is self-defeating because accidents lead to hugely increased insurance premiums and lost contracts.

I remember some years ago in a previous life when I was a training manager for quite a sizeable operation, the operations manager was of the opinion that we should reduce annual recurrent simulator training by 2 hours per pilot to save money. I told him that, au contraire, we should increase it by at least 2 -4 hours per pilot to save accidents and lives and spend at least an extra day at the simulator using the GFSS to improve knowledge. Sadly, the compromise was that we just retained the system we had. Unfortunately, when it comes to a fight between training and operations/commercial, the latter nearly always wins - until there's an accident.
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Old 20th Sep 2016, 13:50
  #55 (permalink)  
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Ah. Lost in translation there. A HoverMower was a lawnmower, hence the comment, they couldn't hover! From memory, they couldn't mow very well either!
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Old 20th Sep 2016, 14:26
  #56 (permalink)  
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Retro Mode "on"

A lot less bovver than a hovver.


Retro Mode "off"
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Old 20th Sep 2016, 15:32
  #57 (permalink)  
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Soggy - I echo every word Bob

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Old 20th Sep 2016, 18:59
  #58 (permalink)  
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Another report has been published....the basic points:

1. AgustaWestland trained 10 pilots, but only 4 were found "qualified" to fly as PIC, 6 others were designated Copilots only.
2. The two "pilots" flying during the crash were both "Copilots only".
3. They were hovering OGE in AP mode, when all of a sudden "a marabou came close" (only that no one could see this huge bird on any of the videos-i smell bs!)-
4. Pilot overreacted, entered VRS and had no clue how to recover.

Uncertified pilot crashed police helicopter | The Star, Kenya
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Old 20th Sep 2016, 20:06
  #59 (permalink)  
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I have to say, I know the guys who were doing this training, and they are not "box tickers". They were sent to provide the best training they could. They did their best, and they made their recommendations based on what they saw. What the customer does with the info is up to them. This is not EASA or FAA.

Acting as an instructor in this type of environment, you have to ask yourself whether you have left the student more competent than you found him, and whether you have highlighted to those who need to know any serious failings you may have found. If so - what more can be asked? You know the customer is going to go and fly the shiny new helicopter whatever.
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Old 20th Sep 2016, 21:53
  #60 (permalink)  
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they'd be better off in H125s or Robby Police Copters

pointless to have all that engine redundancy and no idea

better mitigate the real risk in this case unwarranted complexity
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