Helijet banned by TC from landing S-76Cs at certain B.C. hospitals
We needed the pilot door extra window and other mods to operate the profile on the C+, it was an RFM requirement
@ cpt
In Macau, and I know all about the Macau operation because I worked there, we used C+ (and B222 before that). We never used the C model, nor could we because it just doesn't have the performance. I know how gutless the C model is because I've got a couple of thousand hours on them also. The performance available had to keep you above the level of the heli deck, you could not plan on descending below the heli heli deck using the drop down profile. We used to regularly operate with 10 pax up to about 28 degrees (we didn't need much fuel out of Hong Kong to get back to Macau), and there was never much stuff in the boot. In summer it gets up to about 33 degrees in Hong Kong and there were occasions we could not uplift some passengers due to performance limitations.
When it came time to replace the C+ with something else the C++ was an option, but they selected the 139 instead.
I doubt very much that an S76C, even if fitted with the modified pilot door, would have the power to be operationally sensible if you needed Cat A elevated heli deck performance. Besides, as far as I know, the collective detent system required by the RFM isn't available for the C model.
In Macau, and I know all about the Macau operation because I worked there, we used C+ (and B222 before that). We never used the C model, nor could we because it just doesn't have the performance. I know how gutless the C model is because I've got a couple of thousand hours on them also. The performance available had to keep you above the level of the heli deck, you could not plan on descending below the heli heli deck using the drop down profile. We used to regularly operate with 10 pax up to about 28 degrees (we didn't need much fuel out of Hong Kong to get back to Macau), and there was never much stuff in the boot. In summer it gets up to about 33 degrees in Hong Kong and there were occasions we could not uplift some passengers due to performance limitations.
When it came time to replace the C+ with something else the C++ was an option, but they selected the 139 instead.
I doubt very much that an S76C, even if fitted with the modified pilot door, would have the power to be operationally sensible if you needed Cat A elevated heli deck performance. Besides, as far as I know, the collective detent system required by the RFM isn't available for the C model.
Avoid imitations
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I have time on the S76C. The advantage over the A+ was the improved gearbox with a higher transmission limit. That meant you always knew you would hit the engine limits first so those gauges were more relevant. It was known as the B- by those who had previously flown the B model.
Hello Gullibell,
Suddenly I'm feeling a bit stupid ... (not the first time actually))) My mistake is probably coming from the fact that I was wrongly associating the "DDR" to the C models ... these pilots from Macau I'd met (one of them made my C+ conversion), were talking about DDR instead of DECU and with the passing years, in my mind "DDR" wrongly implied S76C (that I've never flown)
In regard with the OEI take-off profiles, a pure CAT A ""Helipad doesn't allow a "drop down" below the helideck level, but nevertheless, the "drop down" procedure described in RFM (C+/C++) is very usefull as an "enhanced class of performance 2" when we don't want to allow this "safe forced landing after tak-off" Anyway, this is out of topic as long as the C is concerned.
Suddenly I'm feeling a bit stupid ... (not the first time actually))) My mistake is probably coming from the fact that I was wrongly associating the "DDR" to the C models ... these pilots from Macau I'd met (one of them made my C+ conversion), were talking about DDR instead of DECU and with the passing years, in my mind "DDR" wrongly implied S76C (that I've never flown)
In regard with the OEI take-off profiles, a pure CAT A ""Helipad doesn't allow a "drop down" below the helideck level, but nevertheless, the "drop down" procedure described in RFM (C+/C++) is very usefull as an "enhanced class of performance 2" when we don't want to allow this "safe forced landing after tak-off" Anyway, this is out of topic as long as the C is concerned.
CPT,
AC 29-2C permits drop-down and an AEO approach to LDP.
This is a legitimate CAT A procedure and employed by all manufacturers.
Jim
AC 29-2C permits drop-down and an AEO approach to LDP.
This is a legitimate CAT A procedure and employed by all manufacturers.
Jim
Last edited by JimL; 22nd Aug 2016 at 13:25. Reason: LDP for TDP
Important to remember that AC don't authorise deviations from regulatory requirements.
Cat A elevated heliport departure does allow drop-down in order to gain Vtoss, but (if I recall) you must have the OEI performance to clear all obstacles in the take-off path by at least 15', and you must have performance charts to determine the vertical magnitude of any descent below the take-off surface.
S76C = 1S1 engine (hydromechanical fuel control, manual engine speed "beep" trim)
S76C+ = 2S1 engine (single channel digital engine control with manual mechanical control backup, no engine speed "beep" trim, faults displayed on DDR)
S76C++ = 2S2 engine (dual channel DECU with manual electrical control backup, no engine speed "beep" trim, faults displayed on IIDS)
Cat A elevated heliport departure does allow drop-down in order to gain Vtoss, but (if I recall) you must have the OEI performance to clear all obstacles in the take-off path by at least 15', and you must have performance charts to determine the vertical magnitude of any descent below the take-off surface.
S76C = 1S1 engine (hydromechanical fuel control, manual engine speed "beep" trim)
S76C+ = 2S1 engine (single channel digital engine control with manual mechanical control backup, no engine speed "beep" trim, faults displayed on DDR)
S76C++ = 2S2 engine (dual channel DECU with manual electrical control backup, no engine speed "beep" trim, faults displayed on IIDS)
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Ok - I was looking for something like the A model trim switches.....
Years since I flew a C++ but I see the OEI select switches and collective increase/decrease but no eng trim. Am I confused?
How goes the battle 212man? Always enjoy your posts.
How goes the battle 212man? Always enjoy your posts.
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You are confused. My photo points a 2D view and includes the ENG TRIM INC/DEC seen from above .... it is more on the side of the grip - Decu Fault is on the same switch, depress, instead of up/down for ENG TRIM
I'm good Albatross - thanks, although fending off potential redundancy right now!
I must admit, I assumed the central trim switch is for the searchlight, and I don't see anything that resembles engine trims, but I never flew a C+/++, only A+/++.
Edit: I see it now Voanda - thanks!
I must admit, I assumed the central trim switch is for the searchlight, and I don't see anything that resembles engine trims, but I never flew a C+/++, only A+/++.
Edit: I see it now Voanda - thanks!
I see it now. Thanks
flew the A, A++, C+ and C++
It all gets confused in the memory after a while.
I always remember a check pilot on the A guiding me through my initial on the 76. (I was transitioning from 212 ) "This is the 76....you will find is much to complicated for what it actually does!)
In 212 electrics Essential bus - Non Essential bus ..seems clear. In the 76 Primary Bus Essential bus ..by definition in the dictionary Primary is the same as Essential. My poor addled brain had a hard time with that. Won't even think of the twisted electrical maniacs
at Airbus helicopters. Just joking.
flew the A, A++, C+ and C++
It all gets confused in the memory after a while.
I always remember a check pilot on the A guiding me through my initial on the 76. (I was transitioning from 212 ) "This is the 76....you will find is much to complicated for what it actually does!)
In 212 electrics Essential bus - Non Essential bus ..seems clear. In the 76 Primary Bus Essential bus ..by definition in the dictionary Primary is the same as Essential. My poor addled brain had a hard time with that. Won't even think of the twisted electrical maniacs
at Airbus helicopters. Just joking.
Yes FED - I believe we have been talking at cross-purposes, and realised that just after I last logged off. The C+/++ trim appears to be for a single adjustment of Nr with, I imagine both engines matched by the DECU/FADEC, whereas the A models (and I guess the C with the 1S1) have two separate trims to control each engine (as you well know!)
@ Voando
Regarding my #27. Yes, I should have mentioned the different C+ build specs. C+ could be ordered with or without IIDS, those without IIDS had engine faults displayed on the DDR.
Regarding my #27. Yes, I should have mentioned the different C+ build specs. C+ could be ordered with or without IIDS, those without IIDS had engine faults displayed on the DDR.
@212man
#38 correct. 2 x ENG beep trim switches for A/C, mounted on collective head, one for each engine, to adjust load sharing between the engines, and to set engine output (rotor) speed, and the governors are still governing whilst you're beeping etc etc.
C+/++ is fundamentally different. There is a single spring centred switch on the collective (seen in #30) that is only active with an engine/s in manual mode, that is, with the electronic engine governing taken out of the equation for that engine. The switch is activated automatically by the DECU (C++) when both A and B channels have failed, most likely indicated with blue engine control light ON and IIDS warning. Alternatively the pilot can manually control engine power with this switch via an overhead 3-position magnetically latched switch, by selecting #1 manual or #2 manual. The spring centred switch on the collective will control the power output (increase or decrease) of the engine in manual control, or both engines together if DECU channel A & B both fail on each engine.
The pilot is then entirely controlling the manual engine/s power with this collective switch (which electrically drives the fuel metering valve in or out as per pilot command). A pilot can't select both engines to manual because the 3 position switch that controls the function doesn't physically give you that option. There is other logic built into the switch operation, e.g. a pilot can't put a good engine into manual mode with a double channel DECU failure on the other engine, blah blah.
The C+/++ description above is not entirely applicable to C+, but they share enough similarities to be grouped together, whereas A/C are entirely different.
Sorry for rambling on, I get carried away sometimes.
#38 correct. 2 x ENG beep trim switches for A/C, mounted on collective head, one for each engine, to adjust load sharing between the engines, and to set engine output (rotor) speed, and the governors are still governing whilst you're beeping etc etc.
C+/++ is fundamentally different. There is a single spring centred switch on the collective (seen in #30) that is only active with an engine/s in manual mode, that is, with the electronic engine governing taken out of the equation for that engine. The switch is activated automatically by the DECU (C++) when both A and B channels have failed, most likely indicated with blue engine control light ON and IIDS warning. Alternatively the pilot can manually control engine power with this switch via an overhead 3-position magnetically latched switch, by selecting #1 manual or #2 manual. The spring centred switch on the collective will control the power output (increase or decrease) of the engine in manual control, or both engines together if DECU channel A & B both fail on each engine.
The pilot is then entirely controlling the manual engine/s power with this collective switch (which electrically drives the fuel metering valve in or out as per pilot command). A pilot can't select both engines to manual because the 3 position switch that controls the function doesn't physically give you that option. There is other logic built into the switch operation, e.g. a pilot can't put a good engine into manual mode with a double channel DECU failure on the other engine, blah blah.
The C+/++ description above is not entirely applicable to C+, but they share enough similarities to be grouped together, whereas A/C are entirely different.
Sorry for rambling on, I get carried away sometimes.