Thai Lakota Crash

[jonwilly]

5 bodies, crashed helicopter found on Chiang Mai mountain | Bangkok Post: news

Thailand's highest mountain, poor weather conditions.

john

[BOBAKAT]

News report :

First : helicopter landed safely due to bad weather. no one injured. 5 safe.

Second : no one body found on the wreckage, but some paper for evidence

third : Four of the bodies were found about a kilometre from the debris an hour later. The fifth was reported to have been in the wreckage.


Where is the true ?

Indeed , very bad news. R.I.P Brothers....condolences for the families

[tistisnot]

The truth? The speed and spread of information by social media - without necessarily substantiating fact. Journalists are as guilty of irresponsibility; the military command slow to react in the face of such bombardment. Everyone should be referred to one central calm considered controlling voice .... and all should understand the pain and heartbreak misreporting can be to families and loved ones.

Likely another military accident as a result of poor weather. Will the military embrace the safety culture - question their pilot training, improve operational risk assessments during civil relief missions, concentrate on Pilot Decision Making, with senior officers seemingly often on board ......

[Geoffersincornwall]

Tistisnot

That's an interesting point about the influence of VIP's on decision making. Maybe we ought to add another CRM issue to the 'cross-cockpit-gradient' - a new issue we can label 'the cockpit-cabin-gradient'?

G.

[BOBAKAT]

In all Army, when you have the boss on board....you have to do....That is totally wrong, but....that'is...

[tistisnot]

Bobakat ..... I think you will find in other cultures, military aviation trainers have addressed this issue and emphasize the responsibility of the aviator for the lives of other humans, and the possible loss of an asset. I believe after the 3 accidents within 3 days a few years ago in Thailand (all for another disaster relief effort, two poor weather and one mechanical failure), the military commanders were themselves afraid to fly thereafter - this is never good as it really can affect the senior officer's judgement in his own role - many are only too happy for the PIC to say, sorry guys - not this time.

[megan]

Maybe we ought to add another CRM issue to the 'cross-cockpit-gradient' - a new issue we can label 'the cockpit-cabin-gradient'?

Has always been a issue in executive and charter operations, people in the back putting pressure on the front seaters. "Torch" Lewis, famous identity of USA business aviation, wrote a very good article years ago about an experience he had flying a Lodestar early in his career, and the owner issuing orders, "if you don't land at XYZ you're sacked". ILS to below minima, night, good crosswind, raining. He did, and kept his job, but the article was a teaching tool, as in, don't be stupid like I was, letting yourself be influenced against your better judgement.

[BOBAKAT]

In Asia, you have a fondement culture teached formally to each one student from the kindergarden to University: "The boss is always right"!
No one student ask a question to the teacher, never. Why ?
1/ if you ask something, it mean you don't understand = you loose the face
2/ if you don't understand it mean the teacher don't teach you clearly : He lose the face...
And the most important in asia, before all is : Never lose the face....
Not only in helicopter industry or army, all fields included Civil aviation. Many of the crashes are due to "Yes , boss" culture...
It's not mine...

[Old Farang]

I have to agree with BOBAKAT. I no longer fly, but over 25 years ago when I first came to live in Thailand, I was involved with both Army and civilian operators. At that time privately owned helicopters had to be flown by Army pilots, and there was no way that they would listen to me, not being a "member" of their clique! Not had much to do with fixed wing operators here, but from what I do know the same rules apply.

[tistisnot]

Bell 212 crashed yesterday in dense trees returning from supplies mission down south - aircraft write-off, 7 crew and mechanics hospitalized .....

[chopper2004]

Originally Posted by BOBAKAT

In Asia, you have a fondement culture teached formally to each one student from the kindergarden to University: "The boss is always right"!
No one student ask a question to the teacher, never. Why ?
1/ if you ask something, it mean you don't understand = you loose the face
2/ if you don't understand it mean the teacher don't teach you clearly : He lose the face...
And the most important in asia, before all is : Never lose the face....
Not only in helicopter industry or army, all fields included Civil aviation. Many of the crashes are due to "Yes , boss" culture...
It's not mine...

Talking Human Factors here - or lack of as it is part of the culture out there. I am led to believe the Korean Air Cargo 747 crash at the edge of Hatfield Forest in Dec 1999 had elements of that according to various reports - CVFDR recordings - of a dispute between the Capt and F/O where the F/O reckons something is wrong and tries to correct or inform the Capt but the Capt is pulling rank et etc. Then disaster happens sadly.

I had started my aviation career that autumn and worked between nearby town, LGW and STN at times and was in the head office that day wondering why half the office was late / missing. My mentor and then boss was on his way back from his gf company xmas in London. They were coming up the M11 to drop him off at work but as it was closed then no go. Likewise several of my colleagues lived in north circular they had not made it to work because of the accident.

There is a thread on here about EMS accidents stateside and the working relationship culture of medical staff / flight nurse parmaedics versus pilots.

Hope the 212 crew recover toute de suite,

cheers

[tistisnot]

Geoffers,

This latest one perhaps for your cross-cockpit-cabin gradient ...... 3 pilots on board ..... Police Colonel, Major and Captain. Bad weather seemed to force an emergency landing according to the report ........

Injured officers airlifted from helicopter crash site | Bangkok Post: news

[212man]

I am led to believe the Korean Air Cargo 747 crash at the edge of Hatfield Forest in Dec 1999 had elements of that according to various reports - CVFDR recordings - of a dispute between the Capt and F/O where the F/O reckons something is wrong and tries to correct or inform the Capt but the Capt is pulling rank et etc. Then disaster happens sadly

It was the flight engineer alerting the captain (about the erroneous ADI roll indications) but ignored - possibly due to the captain being 'saturated'. F/O may or may not have noticed, but said nothing - possibly inhibited due to the seniority issue and already having been the subject of derogatory comments (from capt.) before take off.

[gulliBell]

I think the Koreans overcame that cultural cockpit gradient problem thing by insisting that all conversations on the flight deck be in English. Once the native language is removed from the equation those CRM problematic cultural aspects no longer exist.

[tistisnot]

gulliBell

Surely it is not the English language (though easier in this case because of aircraft manufacturer) but rather sterile cockpit, standard phraseology, and procedures enforced by training staff?