End of the 225?
Joined: Nov 2008
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From: UK
German and Brazilian military ground AS532 and H725M:
HeliHub German and Brazilian military ground AS532 and H725M
HeliHub German and Brazilian military ground AS532 and H725M
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 244
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From: Birmingham
CHC saying decision to end Puma use in UK is commercial
Helicopter operator CHC ends H225 use from Aberdeen base - BBC News
Helicopter operator CHC ends H225 use from Aberdeen base - BBC News
Joined: Aug 2009
Aviation Qualifications: Military
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From: Texas
Which version of the Super Puma is the EC725 made by Helibras based on? (Do the Brazilians make all parts, or are some still provided by vendors in France? )
Helibras began assembly of Cougars French-made parts in 2002. In late 2013, there's a note that the first "Brazilian-made EC725" made its first flight. As a lot of OEM's use outsourcing for a variety of systems, what parts are still coming from France/AH? (key part of course being gear box). (While I only ask about Brazil, there are a number of other military customers who might be getting very concerned ...)
Helibras began assembly of Cougars French-made parts in 2002. In late 2013, there's a note that the first "Brazilian-made EC725" made its first flight. As a lot of OEM's use outsourcing for a variety of systems, what parts are still coming from France/AH? (key part of course being gear box). (While I only ask about Brazil, there are a number of other military customers who might be getting very concerned ...)
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: White eagle land
Like Poland, in the process of buying 50 utility helicopters. H225M was chosen.
Regarding Brasil.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkObf4vVEAAr5B2.jpg
A.
Regarding Brasil.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkObf4vVEAAr5B2.jpg
A.
Joined: Oct 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Den Haag
Which version of the Super Puma is the EC725 made by Helibras based on?
Old numbering system was:
1=Civil, 6=Mil
Tonnage category
0 = single engine
5 = twin.
But, had to only be three digits so EC120 no problem but can't have a 6125 or 1125, so:
1+
125
----
225
and
6+
125
----
725
All changed now.....
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 244
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From: Birmingham
Solution
Most of us have been talking out E&P operations as that is what most 225s and many of the L2s spend their time doing.
It is clear by now that economics have taken over and that we are not going to see these types doing that anytime soon, if at all.
However, what about those aircraft not in E&P and those used in the military. It would seem highly unlikely that the military operators will not want to return their aircraft to the air at some point (by the way how many similarities does the RAF HC2 gearbox have to the L2s?).
So how could that be done best?
Obviously the issue of the suspension bars/feet needs to be cleared-up. Was this the initiating factor, a secondary result or a red herring? AH clearly seem to believe strongly it was a factor in al this.
Secondly we have to restore the reputation of the gearbox. To do that we have to show exactly why these fatigue cracks occured and preferably prevent them by a method additional to chip detection.
Then we need to resetablish confidence in the military. That will be easier than NS workers, but still needs to be done (remember Nimrod)
Surely AH will have to try? Wholesale retirement of the fleet would be economically disastarous
It is clear by now that economics have taken over and that we are not going to see these types doing that anytime soon, if at all.
However, what about those aircraft not in E&P and those used in the military. It would seem highly unlikely that the military operators will not want to return their aircraft to the air at some point (by the way how many similarities does the RAF HC2 gearbox have to the L2s?).
So how could that be done best?
Obviously the issue of the suspension bars/feet needs to be cleared-up. Was this the initiating factor, a secondary result or a red herring? AH clearly seem to believe strongly it was a factor in al this.
Secondly we have to restore the reputation of the gearbox. To do that we have to show exactly why these fatigue cracks occured and preferably prevent them by a method additional to chip detection.
Then we need to resetablish confidence in the military. That will be easier than NS workers, but still needs to be done (remember Nimrod)
Surely AH will have to try? Wholesale retirement of the fleet would be economically disastarous
Joined: May 2011
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From: NEW YORK
AH will do a complete product reengineering in any case imho.
There are so many models of that family in service that they cannot just wash their hands of the one version involved, even if there is no immediate market requirement.
There are so many models of that family in service that they cannot just wash their hands of the one version involved, even if there is no immediate market requirement.
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: 50 50 Broome
Bristow Australia engineers are mothballing the 225s and Bristow is looking for somewhere to store them. Its possible they will be packed up and shipped out of the country. Potentially not good for jobs for the 225 engineers and pilots. Sad to see the end of the 225 like this.
Joined: Jul 2009
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From: Brasil
Helibras has started its bussines in the helicopter industry in 1978. As a state owner company, just few years ago it became private company. It is a simple assembly line company. It began to build the AS350 in late 1970s providing our Air Force and Navy.
The helicopter came up from France in boxes by sea!
In late 1980s, because our Army has started to fly helicopters, Dauphin were included in the production portfolio in the same way of AS350!
Recently, the government did an agreement with France government to sell 52 725/225 forecasting our Oil Industry and Armed Forces. Due some issues involving political and financial matters, this wasn´t fine and, they delivered only 6 or 8 725 to Air Force and Navy... Including this agreement, we had too, a 225 FTD installed in Rio de Janeiro. As a 225 pilot, it is frustrating to see all this mess, with no one possibility to help...
The helicopter came up from France in boxes by sea!
In late 1980s, because our Army has started to fly helicopters, Dauphin were included in the production portfolio in the same way of AS350!
Recently, the government did an agreement with France government to sell 52 725/225 forecasting our Oil Industry and Armed Forces. Due some issues involving political and financial matters, this wasn´t fine and, they delivered only 6 or 8 725 to Air Force and Navy... Including this agreement, we had too, a 225 FTD installed in Rio de Janeiro. As a 225 pilot, it is frustrating to see all this mess, with no one possibility to help...
Joined: Mar 2009
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From: **** You
The Super Puma Family have plenty of design flaws that have never been addressed.
Here is the best example, I have plenty more!
The Engine Fire Extinguishing system is Armed at all times. It's common sense design practice to ONLY arm the system after the Fire Handle has been pulled.
No good putting out the fire if the Fuel is still running.
Of course it's in the Emergency procedures to pull the Fire Handle first.
NO other Aircraft is designed this way....It's an extra hole in the Swiss Cheese put there by the OEM and never rectified because the Aviation Industry is Reactive NOT Proactive.
Who uses 3 Sus Bar instead of 4
Who uses the Epicyclic Ring as part of the structure of the case
Who uses the Planet gears as part of the Bearing
Who uses Electronics to Control a HYD Landing Gear System
Who these days uses Bimetallic Fire Detector Systems
Don't even get me started on the Fuel System
Simple answer Eurocopter.
Poor old Airbus, are going to have to clean up the mess.
Here is the best example, I have plenty more!
The Engine Fire Extinguishing system is Armed at all times. It's common sense design practice to ONLY arm the system after the Fire Handle has been pulled.
No good putting out the fire if the Fuel is still running.
Of course it's in the Emergency procedures to pull the Fire Handle first.
NO other Aircraft is designed this way....It's an extra hole in the Swiss Cheese put there by the OEM and never rectified because the Aviation Industry is Reactive NOT Proactive.
Who uses 3 Sus Bar instead of 4
Who uses the Epicyclic Ring as part of the structure of the case
Who uses the Planet gears as part of the Bearing
Who uses Electronics to Control a HYD Landing Gear System
Who these days uses Bimetallic Fire Detector Systems
Don't even get me started on the Fuel System
Simple answer Eurocopter.
Poor old Airbus, are going to have to clean up the mess.
Last edited by buzz66; 16th June 2016 at 09:08.
Joined: Aug 2009
Aviation Qualifications: Military
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From: Texas
@buzz66
I think the S-70 has gears/bearings combined in their planetary gears, something similar to what you see in the pictures from the 225. (Details no doubt vary and you'd need to compare the blueprints and assembly drawings to see the distinctions ...)
I think the S-70 has gears/bearings combined in their planetary gears, something similar to what you see in the pictures from the 225. (Details no doubt vary and you'd need to compare the blueprints and assembly drawings to see the distinctions ...)
Joined: Jan 2015
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From: Europe
Who uses 3 Sus Bar instead of 4
Who uses the Epicyclic Ring as part of the structure of the case
Who uses the Planet gears as part of the Bearing
Who uses Electronics to Control a HYD Landing Gear System
Who these days uses Bimetallic Fire Detector Systems
I could go on but buzz66's ill-conceived rant doesn't really deserve the effort.
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 45
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From: **** You
There it is right there!
You clearly don't understand
I'm not talking about when Eurocopter brought out a better sealed Fire Detector.
It's still a bi-metallic jobby!
Everyone else uses a Closed loop Capillary action Detectors
You know the ones, they look like a long piece of thick lock wire.
If you still don't have a clue, then you need to start working on some other Aircraft Types
The sealed Bi-Mettalic rubbish that even 3rd world manufacturers like Embraer dropped decades ago will still get enough moisture inside and cause a Fire D fault if the sumpy's hose down a Warm Gearbox. Another nice move was to Decrease the fault tolerance from K OHMS on the Anologue 332L L1 to Meg Ohms on the EC225.
Eurocopter are so worried and paranoid about there crappy gearbox they had to put a DUAL 7 detector system around the gearbox......2 SYSTEMS with a total of 14 Fire Detectors JUST around the gearbox.
Even a Cessna 210 uses the Hyd to select gear up and gear down, not and electrical switch
Maybe now Eurocpoter are Airbus the Helciopter devision could start learning a few things from the fixed wing world
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 300
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From: Texas
"Combining electronics and hydraulics eh? You going to query Bell's FBW 525?"
The Bell 525 landing gear is electrically actuated with electric motors and ball screws, like the Bell 429 WLG and AB H160. The AW 149 may be all electric also. Most new helicopters are adopting all electric actuation for landing gear.
The Bell 525 landing gear is electrically actuated with electric motors and ball screws, like the Bell 429 WLG and AB H160. The AW 149 may be all electric also. Most new helicopters are adopting all electric actuation for landing gear.
Joined: Aug 2009
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 9,330
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From: Texas
"Combining electronics and hydraulics eh? You going to query Bell's FBW 525?"
The Bell 525 landing gear is electrically actuated with electric motors and ball screws, like the Bell 429 WLG and AB H160. The AW 149 may be all electric also. Most new helicopters are adopting all electric actuation for landing gear.
The Bell 525 landing gear is electrically actuated with electric motors and ball screws, like the Bell 429 WLG and AB H160. The AW 149 may be all electric also. Most new helicopters are adopting all electric actuation for landing gear.
You going to query Bell's FBW 525?
I have it on good authority that another OEM uses "electrically activated hydraulically powered" flight controls. From an old SH-60 flight manual
The Automatic Flight Control System (AFCS) is an electrohydromechanical system that provides inputs to the flight control system to assist the pilot in maneuvering and handling the helicopter.
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: daworld
It is coming though Lonewolf 50. Airbus (fixed wing) have already tested electric actuators on a flying test bed.
It is coming. Will be a while till anything filters through to eh helicopter world though.
It is coming. Will be a while till anything filters through to eh helicopter world though.
