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Australia dumps Tiger

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Australia dumps Tiger

Old 15th Oct 2020, 01:28
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Are we buying these helicopters to have a certain combat capability, or are we trying to support a less-than-fully-capable machine to save some jobs? If we go to war, the enemy won't really care if we saved some jobs if he is able to knock out the choppers easily.
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Old 15th Oct 2020, 14:29
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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You can’t knock it down if it’s in the hangar for maintenance... 😂
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Old 4th Nov 2020, 18:20
  #23 (permalink)  
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https://www.theaustralian.com.au/spe...731257fa9a8760

Army’s Tiger helicopters face an uncertain future

Australia’s Tiger helicopter fleet may be phased out of service and some defence observers are wondering why?

By KYM BERGMANN
Australian Army ARH Tiger armed reconnaissance helicopters on board HMAS Canberra during Indo-Pacific Endeavour exercises last year. COA Kieren Whiteley
  • From Defence
    October 30, 2020
  • 2 MINUTE READ
Normally when a ship’s platform is replaced it is because it is reaching the end of its life and is no longer fit for purpose. This does not apply to the Army’s 22 Tiger Armed Reconnaissance Helicopters, which are performing very well and have recently spent extensive time at sea on board the Royal Australian Navy’s Canberra class LHDs. The European operators of Tiger — France, Germany and Spain — are in the process of upgrading theirs with the intention of keeping them in service until the 2040s.

Despite this, the army is pushing hard to ditch the perfectly good Tiger fleet and replace them with 29 AH-64E Apache attack helicopters from the US for an estimated $3bn. The Apache is a highly capable machine that was originally conceived as a Cold War “tank buster” and its relatively heavy weight — about 10 tonnes — derives from the amount of armour it carries. The European Tiger was developed at the same time and has a different design philosophy, being four tonnes lighter, making it fast and nimble. Both helicopter types have a crew of two and both have similar weapons — a chin-mounted 30mm canon and a variety of missiles.

So keen are some sections of Defence to ditch the Tigers that it is understood they don’t even want to run a competition for what is known as LAND 4508, preferring to hand over a bucket of money to the US Foreign Military Sales system. If this happens, an immediate consequence is that Airbus — the supplier of Tiger — will have no choice but to significantly reduce their Brisbane support staff, which could see about 300 engineers and software developers being retrenched at the worst possible time.

The current situation can be traced back to the 2016 Defence White Paper that — to the surprise of the army aviation community — recommended the Tiger capability be replaced towards the end of this decade. That seems to have had its origins in a number of problems with availability and cost early in the program — issues that have been satisfactorily addressed years ago. But the way that Defence works is that once a policy decision is announced — even when based on outdated *information — spending on the Tigers started to dry up in anticipation of them being withdrawn from service.
One of the attractions of Apache is that the current model incorporates Link 16 — a vital data-sharing tool in today’s *combat environment.

An irony of the current situation is that Airbus has offered to integrate Link 16 onto Tigers four times, but have been rebuffed because of funding problems. Tigers are interoperable with coalition forces, including deployments to nuclear-powered aircraft carriers, such as the USS Ronald Reagan during an exercise in August and USS Theodore Roosevelt last year.

Other Tiger users, especially the French, are privately *astounded by the direction Australia is heading. Their Tigers have been in continuous combat operations since 2009, with deployments to Afghanistan, Libya, the Central African Republic and currently Mali. Some of these have been high intensity operations with Special Forces units against heavily armed Islamic insurgents, but these events receive little coverage here in what seems to be a case of out of sight, out of mind.

It has been suggested that there is a geopolitical element to this, with Australia seeking even more equipment commonality with the US.

If this is the case, it is to be hoped that our politicians keep in mind Australian interests rather than those of Washington, especially with hundreds of jobs and billions of dollars at stake.

Defence has prepared a paper on the future of the Tigers for the National Security Committee of Cabinet and a decision is expected within weeks.
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Old 15th Jan 2021, 17:02
  #24 (permalink)  
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The Apache is announced as the replacement for the Tiger. Sound judgement and practical common sense prevail.
https://www.flightglobal.com/helicop...141971.article

Apache triumphs in Australian attack helicopter competition

By Greg Waldron14 January 2021
Canberra has selected the Boeing AH-64E Apache Guardian to fulfil its Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (ARH) requirement from 2025.

The decision will see the Apache replace the Airbus Helicopters Tiger, which is currently in service with the Australian Army.



Source: Boeing Australia

Artist’s rendering of the AH-64E in Australian Army livery

“This new ARH capability will strengthen Australia’s armed reconnaissance force to better shape our strategic environment and deter actions against our national interest,” says defence minister Linda Reynolds.

“Defence considered a number of helicopters against key criteria of proven ability, maturity and an off-the-shelf operating system.”

The Tiger replacement project, designated Project Land 4503, calls for 29 ARHs to replace Canberra’s 22 Tigers.

Although the Tiger is now performing well in Australian Army service, the programme suffered years of issues before stabilising.

The Department of Defence notes that lessons learned from the Tiger and other acquisitions have “informed a strategy to seek a proven, mature ARH replacement capability”.

In addition to Boeing, the requirement attracted interest from Bell with the AH-1Z Viper. Airbus Helicopters also pitched an upgrade to the existing Tiger fleet, as well as the acquisition of seven additional examples, possibly from one of the type’s European operators.

“The Apache Guardian is the most lethal, most survivable and lowest risk option, meeting all of Defence’s capability, through-life support, security, and certification requirements,” says Reynolds.

“By pursuing a proven and low-risk system offered by the Apache, Defence will avoid the ongoing cost and schedule risk typically associated with developmental platforms.”

Cirium fleets data shows Canberra’s decision will make Australia the Asia-Pacific region’s seventh AH-64 user. The type’s other users in the region are India, Indonesia, Japan, Singapore, South Korea, and Taiwan.

“Boeing appreciates the Commonwealth of Australia’s confidence in selecting the AH-64E Apache’s proven, reliable and value-for-money capability,” says the US company.

“The AH-64E Apache provides Australia with a low-risk, fully-integrated, battle-proven capability which is interoperable with Australia’s key allies. It is supported by an active production line and a US Army modernisation plan through the late 2040s, thereby ensuring the platform remains the leading attack reconnaissance capability through 2050 and beyond.”


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Old 15th Jan 2021, 17:09
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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So Apache has air to air capabilities as well it seems?
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Old 15th Jan 2021, 19:57
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Originally Posted by Less Hair View Post
So Apache has air to air capabilities as well it seems?
Yes it does, just like the Tiger...
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Old 15th Jan 2021, 20:52
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Even the Scout AH1 had A2A capabilities. It just depended how fast the target was travelling.
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Old 15th Jan 2021, 20:57
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Yes it does, just like the Tiger...
My point was it shot down that Tiger.
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Old 16th Jan 2021, 10:52
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Originally Posted by Same again View Post
Even the Scout AH1 had A2A capabilities. It just depended how fast the target was travelling.
Thr cabin mounted Gimpy be more effective than lol wire guided AS11/AS12 ?

cheers
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Old 16th Jan 2021, 12:29
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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I fired quite a few SS11 but only at stationary targets. I do reckon I could have hit a helicopter though. During the Falklands War a fellow Airgunner in a Scout told me that they were hiding in a valley in a low hover waiting for an air raid to pass when he saw an Argentinian Skyhawk flying towards them. He asked for permission to fire from his pilot who told him in no uncertain terms to forget it :-)
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Old 17th Jan 2021, 03:38
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Hell, even the old Huey managed two air to air kills, against AN-2.
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Old 17th Jan 2021, 06:33
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Another sensible MOTS procurement decision along with the MH60R and the C17.
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Old 17th Jan 2021, 07:21
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Hell, even the old Huey managed two air to air kills, against AN-2.
And in the Bosnia conflict, I believe an F-15 used a [email protected] bomb to hit a slow-moving MiL.
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Old 2nd Mar 2021, 19:30
  #34 (permalink)  
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And now Germany appears uncertain. https://www.aerotime.aero/27385-will-germany-abandon-the-airbus-tiger-attack-helicopter

on 2nd March 2021
Image : VanderWolf Images / Shutterstock

CLEMENT CHARPENTREAU

Will Germany abandon the Airbus Tiger attack helicopter?

Share this news ?subject=Will%20Germany%20abandon%20...ack-helicopterDesigned in the early 1980s amid the Cold War, the Franco-German Tiger combat helicopter was adopted by the two countries’ respective armies in 2009. Initially thought of as an anti-tank platform that could counter a Soviet invasion, it was eventually transformed into a multirole attack helicopter, with several variants being developed to fit the needs of its operators.

In May 2018, France and Germany formalized the modernization of the Tiger, defined by the French Minister of Armed Forces as a “new stage for Europe of defense and the consolidation of our industry.” On behalf of France, Germany, and Spain, the European Organisation for Joint Armament Cooperation (OCCAR) contracted the manufacturers involved in the project, namely Airbus Helicopters, Thales and MBDA, to carry out risk reduction tasks.

The modernization is due to bring the helicopters to the Mk3, focused on collaborative combat. For example, it should include the Manned Unmanned Teaming (MUM-T) which allows for a helicopter to control a drone. The Tigers of the French armed forces would also be able to share information with the newly-induced frontline fighting vehicles of the Scorpion program.

However, it now appears that the German side is hesitant to see the planned update move forward. After the Franco-German Council on defense and security held on February 5, 2021, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said that “for the standard Tiger 3, there is a whole series of negotiations to be conducted, in particular with Airbus for the German part.”

Unlike the FCAS fighter jet program, whose bumpy ride can mostly be blamed on political quibble, the reluctance over the €5.5 billion modernization comes from the military itself. In particular, the German Army points at the low operational readiness of the Airbus Tiger, according to Reuters.

In its 2018 'Report on the material situation of the main armament systems of the Bundeswehr',' the Defense Ministry revealed that on average only 11.6 out of its 53 Tiger helicopters were operational. In January 2020, the German media Bild said that number dropped to 8.

The Bundeswehr is not the only force critical of the aircraft. In July 2019, the Capability Acquisition and Sustainment Group (CASG) of the Australian defense ministry launched a request for information (RFI) to find a replacement to its Tiger, after several Australian institutions criticized the aircraft for its low availability and high maintenance cost. The RFI asked for the new aircraft to be “proven and mature, off-the-shelf”. In January 2021, Australia’s Defense Minister Linda Reynolds announced the acquisition of 29 Boeing Apaches from 2025, at a cost of $3.5 billion, to replace the 22 Tigers

Germany could now follow the example of Australia. The French defense think-tank Mars reported in La Tribune that Berlin could officialize its withdrawal from the Tiger program by Autumn 2021. Even worse for the European defense industry, an American solution might be preferred. “The decision would seem to have already been taken to order Apache AH-64 helicopters from Boeing through an FMS [Foreign Military Sales – ed. note] procedure,” reported Mars.

Though the decision was not confirmed by any of the interested parties, it is not the first time that Germany’s interest in the Apache is mentioned. In March 2020, Shepherd Media reported that “the German federal government has asked its US counterpart for information about the Boeing AH-64 Apache attack helicopter.”
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 06:38
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Originally Posted by Less Hair View Post
My point was it shot down that Tiger.
Nah, they are Brothers in arms.... its the government that shot down the Tiger.... 😉
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 20:25
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Originally Posted by casper64 View Post
Nah, they are Brothers in arms.... its the government that shot down the Tiger.... 😉
Well, al long long time since I was with the forces - but I doubt, that things have changed there since then.
As long as you keep only few spares and need to order from the industry when you need extra parts, its no wonder, that the readiness is down....
I remember when we went to BOST at least one Lynx was loaded with booze and cigarettes and departed to Portland to to some exchange......
You just don't get far, if you only take three seals for generators with you - which you have to dump after use. Some swapping between helicopters to find a fault and you're lucky to get one airborne....
Same at the base, instead of ordering spares in time for the helicopters, the ones in maintenance get cannibalised to keep the others flying - making it hard to get them out of maintenance in time....
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 21:57
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Yes sir! Exactly that!
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Old 7th Mar 2021, 17:49
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Hope they keep their camouflage when they receive the Guardian, as I think only the JGSDF and IDFAF have their lAH-64D in camouflage.



Unless itís the trick of the light I think our new pair of Guardians have different shade (darker) CARC paint (?)

cheers

Last edited by chopper2004; 7th Mar 2021 at 18:03.
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Old 8th Mar 2021, 01:14
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chopper2004 View Post
Hope they keep their camouflage when they receive the Guardian, as I think only the JGSDF and IDFAF have their lAH-64D in camouflage.



Unless itís the trick of the light I think our new pair of Guardians have different shade (darker) CARC paint (?)

cheers
Indonesia and India also have their own schemes, I doubt the Aussie Apaches will be different to US scheme , just like the Chinooks they will piggyback onto the US system so will stay in std colours.
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Old 8th Mar 2021, 12:17
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Originally Posted by Blackhawk9 View Post
Indonesia and India also have their own schemes, I doubt the Aussie Apaches will be different to US scheme , just like the Chinooks they will piggyback onto the US system so will stay in std colours.
Ah forgot about the Indian grey and Indonesia green you might be right there..

Think our new Guardians been airborne at all for flight tests since they arrived? laughingly one of Wattishams finest buzzed over here EGSC last week.

cheers
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