ATPL(H) Exam Credits and Fixed Wing Conversion
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ATPL(H) Exam Credits and Fixed Wing Conversion
After getting conflicting answers from various training providers, and getting no reply from the UK CAA on the issue, maybe some Rotorheads can shine some light....
1) Under EASA, is it still the case that the ATPL(H) exams expire after 3 years (from the sitting of the last exam)? And the only way to keep them valid is to obtain an IR(H)? Which allows a further 4 years to obtain 1500hrs TT, multi, night etc. i.e. requirements for full ATPL(H) issue? Is there any way, other than getting an IR(H), to keep the exams valid (if holding a CPL(H))?
2) Under EASA, if the ATPL(H) exams have expired, is it still possible to be issued a full ATPL(H) at a later date if all flight requirements are met and all IR(H) exams are passed? (i.e. Does CPL + IR = ATPL if ATPL credits were previously held but have expired)
3) If a person has all ATPL(H) exam credits, the line from FTOs is that only AGK, Instruments, Performance, PoF and Ops need to be sat to obtain full ATPL(A) credits. Is this correct? If so, does the student still need to be signed off by an approved training provider to sit the 5 ATPL(A) exams or can they just apply directly to the CAA to sit them given they've already attended a ATPL theory course when doing the ATPL(H) exams?
4) If the above is correct, how long would the ATPL(A) exams be valid for? Until the ATPL(H) exams expire or three years from the date of sitting the last ATPL(A) exam?
5) Is the fixed wing requirement 100hrs for issue of a CPL(A) if the applicant already holds a CPL(H)?
Thank you.
1) Under EASA, is it still the case that the ATPL(H) exams expire after 3 years (from the sitting of the last exam)? And the only way to keep them valid is to obtain an IR(H)? Which allows a further 4 years to obtain 1500hrs TT, multi, night etc. i.e. requirements for full ATPL(H) issue? Is there any way, other than getting an IR(H), to keep the exams valid (if holding a CPL(H))?
2) Under EASA, if the ATPL(H) exams have expired, is it still possible to be issued a full ATPL(H) at a later date if all flight requirements are met and all IR(H) exams are passed? (i.e. Does CPL + IR = ATPL if ATPL credits were previously held but have expired)
3) If a person has all ATPL(H) exam credits, the line from FTOs is that only AGK, Instruments, Performance, PoF and Ops need to be sat to obtain full ATPL(A) credits. Is this correct? If so, does the student still need to be signed off by an approved training provider to sit the 5 ATPL(A) exams or can they just apply directly to the CAA to sit them given they've already attended a ATPL theory course when doing the ATPL(H) exams?
4) If the above is correct, how long would the ATPL(A) exams be valid for? Until the ATPL(H) exams expire or three years from the date of sitting the last ATPL(A) exam?
5) Is the fixed wing requirement 100hrs for issue of a CPL(A) if the applicant already holds a CPL(H)?
Thank you.
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1) Under EASA, is it still the case that the ATPL(H) exams expire after 3 years (from the sitting of the last exam)? And the only way to keep them valid is to obtain an IR(H)? Which allows a further 4 years to obtain 1500hrs TT, multi, night etc. i.e. requirements for full ATPL(H) issue? Is there any way, other than getting an IR(H), to keep the exams valid (if holding a CPL(H))?
The ATPL(H) exams expire 7 years after the expiry of an IR (if you have one) or the type rating, so effectively your exams last forever. However, the IR has a different validity, and that must be obtained within 36 months. So you will only be in for a set of IR(H) exams, ptobably 4 for a refresh. I presume you have the exams but have been awarded a CPL(H)?
2) Under EASA, if the ATPL(H) exams have expired, is it still possible to be issued a full ATPL(H) at a later date if all flight requirements are met and all IR(H) exams are passed? (i.e. Does CPL + IR = ATPL if ATPL credits were previously held but have expired)
See above.
3) If a person has all ATPL(H) exam credits, the line from FTOs is that only AGK, Instruments, Performance, PoF and Ops need to be sat to obtain full ATPL(A) credits. Is this correct? If so, does the student still need to be signed off by an approved training provider to sit the 5 ATPL(A) exams or can they just apply directly to the CAA to sit them given they've already attended a ATPL theory course when doing the ATPL(H) exams?
It's 5 exams, Perf, POF, AGK, Instruments and Ops. You need an ATO with an approval for bridging courses for a sign off.
4) If the above is correct, how long would the ATPL(A) exams be valid for? Until the ATPL(H) exams expire or three years from the date of sitting the last ATPL(A) exam?
The same 7 years mentioned above, except that the type rating clause does not apply. The same requirement applies for the IR, but on a practical note, if you have a FW IR, the training for the helicopter IR is much reduced - it used to be down to ten hours.
5) Is the fixed wing requirement 100hrs for issue of a CPL(A) if the applicant already holds a CPL(H)?
Don't know off the top of my head.
Phil
The ATPL(H) exams expire 7 years after the expiry of an IR (if you have one) or the type rating, so effectively your exams last forever. However, the IR has a different validity, and that must be obtained within 36 months. So you will only be in for a set of IR(H) exams, ptobably 4 for a refresh. I presume you have the exams but have been awarded a CPL(H)?
2) Under EASA, if the ATPL(H) exams have expired, is it still possible to be issued a full ATPL(H) at a later date if all flight requirements are met and all IR(H) exams are passed? (i.e. Does CPL + IR = ATPL if ATPL credits were previously held but have expired)
See above.
3) If a person has all ATPL(H) exam credits, the line from FTOs is that only AGK, Instruments, Performance, PoF and Ops need to be sat to obtain full ATPL(A) credits. Is this correct? If so, does the student still need to be signed off by an approved training provider to sit the 5 ATPL(A) exams or can they just apply directly to the CAA to sit them given they've already attended a ATPL theory course when doing the ATPL(H) exams?
It's 5 exams, Perf, POF, AGK, Instruments and Ops. You need an ATO with an approval for bridging courses for a sign off.
4) If the above is correct, how long would the ATPL(A) exams be valid for? Until the ATPL(H) exams expire or three years from the date of sitting the last ATPL(A) exam?
The same 7 years mentioned above, except that the type rating clause does not apply. The same requirement applies for the IR, but on a practical note, if you have a FW IR, the training for the helicopter IR is much reduced - it used to be down to ten hours.
5) Is the fixed wing requirement 100hrs for issue of a CPL(A) if the applicant already holds a CPL(H)?
Don't know off the top of my head.
Phil
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Sorry more conflicting answers but fairly sure of my ground....
1) Under EASA, is it still the case that the ATPL(H) exams expire after 3 years (from the sitting of the last exam)? And the only way to keep them valid is to obtain an IR(H)? Which allows a further 4 years to obtain 1500hrs TT, multi, night etc. i.e. requirements for full ATPL(H) issue? Is there any way, other than getting an IR(H), to keep the exams valid (if holding a CPL(H))?
Firstly remember that ATPL(H) does not mean ATPL(H)IR. Lets assume for a moment you did that whole lot for both and have ATPL(H) + IR credit. The VFR bit of the ATPL credit is valid for 7 years from the date of the last valid type rating in the licence. The IR bit is valid for 3 years. So to keep your ATPL theory valid, keep a type rating in there. To keep your IR bit current - get an IR! However, you could get a fixed wing IR and the theory is directly transferable (of course subject to getting the IR(A) theory sorted)
2) Under EASA, if the ATPL(H) exams have expired, is it still possible to be issued a full ATPL(H) at a later date if all flight requirements are met and all IR(H) exams are passed? (i.e. Does CPL + IR = ATPL if ATPL credits were previously held but have expired)
Unlikely that your ATPL(H) exams have expired due to just needed a type rating in there. Otherwise no.
3) If a person has all ATPL(H) exam credits, the line from FTOs is that only AGK, Instruments, Performance, PoF and Ops need to be sat to obtain full ATPL(A) credits. Is this correct? If so, does the student still need to be signed off by an approved training provider to sit the 5 ATPL(A) exams or can they just apply directly to the CAA to sit them given they've already attended a ATPL theory course when doing the ATPL(H) exams?
Sadly the FTO fundamentally have this wrong. It is not ATPL(H) exam credit but actually an issued ATPL(H) that can be bridged to ATPL(A). Bonkers but true - read PART-FCL. I think a training provider would have to sign you off (check out theory credit Appendix to PART-FCL).
4) If the above is correct, how long would the ATPL(A) exams be valid for? Until the ATPL(H) exams expire or three years from the date of sitting the last ATPL(A) exam?
ATPL(A) theory credit is its own thing. You would need to get an IR(A) within three years otherwise they expire. Get the IR(A) then you have 7 years from when the IR(A) was last valid.
5) Is the fixed wing requirement 100hrs for issue of a CPL(A) if the applicant already holds a CPL(H)?
You can use up to 100 hrs of PIC time on helicopters towards the 200 hrs needed for a CPL(A).
Happy to dig out the references if you are stuck. Obviously different ball game if any of your credit is military.
Firstly remember that ATPL(H) does not mean ATPL(H)IR. Lets assume for a moment you did that whole lot for both and have ATPL(H) + IR credit. The VFR bit of the ATPL credit is valid for 7 years from the date of the last valid type rating in the licence. The IR bit is valid for 3 years. So to keep your ATPL theory valid, keep a type rating in there. To keep your IR bit current - get an IR! However, you could get a fixed wing IR and the theory is directly transferable (of course subject to getting the IR(A) theory sorted)
2) Under EASA, if the ATPL(H) exams have expired, is it still possible to be issued a full ATPL(H) at a later date if all flight requirements are met and all IR(H) exams are passed? (i.e. Does CPL + IR = ATPL if ATPL credits were previously held but have expired)
Unlikely that your ATPL(H) exams have expired due to just needed a type rating in there. Otherwise no.
3) If a person has all ATPL(H) exam credits, the line from FTOs is that only AGK, Instruments, Performance, PoF and Ops need to be sat to obtain full ATPL(A) credits. Is this correct? If so, does the student still need to be signed off by an approved training provider to sit the 5 ATPL(A) exams or can they just apply directly to the CAA to sit them given they've already attended a ATPL theory course when doing the ATPL(H) exams?
Sadly the FTO fundamentally have this wrong. It is not ATPL(H) exam credit but actually an issued ATPL(H) that can be bridged to ATPL(A). Bonkers but true - read PART-FCL. I think a training provider would have to sign you off (check out theory credit Appendix to PART-FCL).
4) If the above is correct, how long would the ATPL(A) exams be valid for? Until the ATPL(H) exams expire or three years from the date of sitting the last ATPL(A) exam?
ATPL(A) theory credit is its own thing. You would need to get an IR(A) within three years otherwise they expire. Get the IR(A) then you have 7 years from when the IR(A) was last valid.
5) Is the fixed wing requirement 100hrs for issue of a CPL(A) if the applicant already holds a CPL(H)?
You can use up to 100 hrs of PIC time on helicopters towards the 200 hrs needed for a CPL(A).
Happy to dig out the references if you are stuck. Obviously different ball game if any of your credit is military.
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Paco, GipsyMagpie,
Thank you for taking the time to post decent answers.
So in summary (for the benefit of all):
a) ATPL(H) exams only expire 7 years after last type rating held. (So near impossible for them to expire if working as a pilot, VFR or IFR).
b) If >36 months since sitting the last ATPL(H) exam, only the (4?) IR(H) exams would need to be passed again to regain IR(H) theory credits (and therefore be eligible to begin an IR(H) course).
c) Any attempt to sit exams with a view to bridging from R/W to F/W must be signed off by an ATO.
d) Exams required for bridging are either:
i) 5 (see previous posts) OR
ii) 5 if already the holder of a full ATPL(H). All ATPL(A) exams if the holder of CPL(H) (regardless of whether or not ATPL(H) theory credits are held)
Maybe there are some more thoughts on this out there. I will try and contact the CAA again to clarify.
e) 100hr allowance for holders of CPL(H) when converting to CPL(A)
Thank you for taking the time to post decent answers.
So in summary (for the benefit of all):
a) ATPL(H) exams only expire 7 years after last type rating held. (So near impossible for them to expire if working as a pilot, VFR or IFR).
b) If >36 months since sitting the last ATPL(H) exam, only the (4?) IR(H) exams would need to be passed again to regain IR(H) theory credits (and therefore be eligible to begin an IR(H) course).
c) Any attempt to sit exams with a view to bridging from R/W to F/W must be signed off by an ATO.
d) Exams required for bridging are either:
i) 5 (see previous posts) OR
ii) 5 if already the holder of a full ATPL(H). All ATPL(A) exams if the holder of CPL(H) (regardless of whether or not ATPL(H) theory credits are held)
Maybe there are some more thoughts on this out there. I will try and contact the CAA again to clarify.
e) 100hr allowance for holders of CPL(H) when converting to CPL(A)
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The CAA have changed their interpretation of the requirement to 'hold' an ATPL(H) in order to bridge to ATPL(A) - a change that caught us quite by surprise earlier this year. An extended correspondence finally produced this ruling:
"Commission Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 as amended, Annex I, Appendix 1 (Crediting of theoretical knowledge), paragraph 3.1 does state ‘An applicant for an ATPL holding an ATPL in another category of aircraft shall have received theoretical knowledge bridge instruction at an ATO according to the differences identified between the ATPL syllabi for different aircraft categories.’ The keywords being ‘holding an ATPL in another category of aircraft’ indicating an ATPL in another category is to be held. The only consideration that can be given, is for an applicant who has completed all the ATPL examinations for another aircraft category, whilst those examinations are still within their validity period, this is covered by FCL.035 (b)(4), which refers in turn to FCL.025(c)."
Thus, they said, a CPL(H)IR holder with valid ATPL theory credits can now bridge to ATPL(A).
Part-FCL as written does not require approved training (it actually only says ‘have received instruction at an ATO’) but, following a similarly long correspondence with the CAA, it has become clear that this is a 'mistake' by EASA (apparently due for correction at the next amendment) and the CAA take the view that the ATO must be approved specifically to deliver the bridge course and that the course must comply with requirements for approved training such as at least 10% of course time being in the classroom.
"Commission Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 as amended, Annex I, Appendix 1 (Crediting of theoretical knowledge), paragraph 3.1 does state ‘An applicant for an ATPL holding an ATPL in another category of aircraft shall have received theoretical knowledge bridge instruction at an ATO according to the differences identified between the ATPL syllabi for different aircraft categories.’ The keywords being ‘holding an ATPL in another category of aircraft’ indicating an ATPL in another category is to be held. The only consideration that can be given, is for an applicant who has completed all the ATPL examinations for another aircraft category, whilst those examinations are still within their validity period, this is covered by FCL.035 (b)(4), which refers in turn to FCL.025(c)."
Thus, they said, a CPL(H)IR holder with valid ATPL theory credits can now bridge to ATPL(A).
Part-FCL as written does not require approved training (it actually only says ‘have received instruction at an ATO’) but, following a similarly long correspondence with the CAA, it has become clear that this is a 'mistake' by EASA (apparently due for correction at the next amendment) and the CAA take the view that the ATO must be approved specifically to deliver the bridge course and that the course must comply with requirements for approved training such as at least 10% of course time being in the classroom.
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Thanks, Alex - I wondered, because we have had several do the bridge with the exams held but not the actual licences on both sides. Go figure.
Phil
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if you just have the theoretical knowledge approved...
Alex Whittingham:
""The only consideration that can be given, is for an applicant who has completed all the ATPL examinations for another aircraft category, whilst those examinations are still within their validity period, this is covered by FCL.035 (b)(4), which refers in turn to FCL.025(c).""
If you just have the theoretical knowledge approved, are you sure you can bridge from ATPL(h) theory to ATPL(a) theory?, sorry but here in Spain, the Authority never would allow to do that to pilots.
Do you know someone who has done that?
Thanks
""The only consideration that can be given, is for an applicant who has completed all the ATPL examinations for another aircraft category, whilst those examinations are still within their validity period, this is covered by FCL.035 (b)(4), which refers in turn to FCL.025(c).""
If you just have the theoretical knowledge approved, are you sure you can bridge from ATPL(h) theory to ATPL(a) theory?, sorry but here in Spain, the Authority never would allow to do that to pilots.
Do you know someone who has done that?
Thanks
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Hi Alex,
With reference to your quote. If you completed National CPL helicopter exams in the 80's and this became upgraded to a National ATPL H once the IR was completed then subsequently downgraded to a EASA CPL/IR due to lack of multi-brew helicopter experience where does one stand to convert this to a EASA ATPL A?
With reference to your quote. If you completed National CPL helicopter exams in the 80's and this became upgraded to a National ATPL H once the IR was completed then subsequently downgraded to a EASA CPL/IR due to lack of multi-brew helicopter experience where does one stand to convert this to a EASA ATPL A?
Last edited by freespiritair; 31st Oct 2017 at 21:51.
