Landing during cross country time
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I get this
This question is not about whether you have to land or not. Its about an argument/ego battle between some pilots who work at competing flight schools.
Now here is the real answer. land your damn aircraft and don't worry about what aaanybody else is doing. Who TF cares what the real definition of land is? If there is any question in your mind about what it means or what you are supposed to do, land, touch down, plant the sucker, slide er on, kiss mother earth.
Here let me help you with this: FAA/EASA/ or whoever you fall under inspector asks, "did you LAND at all of these airports?" If you actually landed then you can answer calmly and confidently, "YES", and no one can or will ever question you further. There will be no video or eyewitness testimony that can ever contradict your answer and you can pass a lie detector test. AND, no one will ever be able to challenge your judgement on this issue because the regs say to "land" and that is exactly what you did! You don't have to worry about how anyone else accomplished this lofty goal. All you need to worry your pretty little head about is that you did it absolutely and unequivocally correct.
It ain't brain surgery, that's why you don't have to be a brain surgeon to do it.
Hope that helps.
Now here is the real answer. land your damn aircraft and don't worry about what aaanybody else is doing. Who TF cares what the real definition of land is? If there is any question in your mind about what it means or what you are supposed to do, land, touch down, plant the sucker, slide er on, kiss mother earth.
Here let me help you with this: FAA/EASA/ or whoever you fall under inspector asks, "did you LAND at all of these airports?" If you actually landed then you can answer calmly and confidently, "YES", and no one can or will ever question you further. There will be no video or eyewitness testimony that can ever contradict your answer and you can pass a lie detector test. AND, no one will ever be able to challenge your judgement on this issue because the regs say to "land" and that is exactly what you did! You don't have to worry about how anyone else accomplished this lofty goal. All you need to worry your pretty little head about is that you did it absolutely and unequivocally correct.
It ain't brain surgery, that's why you don't have to be a brain surgeon to do it.
Hope that helps.
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@canterbury
They should not log it as "flight time" but they should log it as "PIC time"!
Because if something goes wrong during ground idle and you are at the controls you surely would be "in charge" of the outcome (damage, injuries and worse!)
They should not log it as "flight time" but they should log it as "PIC time"!
Because if something goes wrong during ground idle and you are at the controls you surely would be "in charge" of the outcome (damage, injuries and worse!)
Avoid imitations
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It seems to me that some here are confusing the requirements of a "qualifying cross country flight" and the definition of "cross country".
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It seems to me that some here are confusing the requirements of a "qualifying cross country flight" and the definition of "cross country".
Any contact with earth is a landing.
A good landing is, where you could walk away from.
A great landing is, when you could use the aircraft again.
For the qualifying solo cross country flight during license training, a given distance has to be flown between the airfields, and you have to land there (I had to get stamps from "C", meaning to shut the engine down and leave it).
With your license in the pocket, a cross country flight is anything out of visibility of the traffic pattern. A landing is not necessary.
Otherwise, taking off in Berlin, Germany, flying a sight seeing tour to the Baltic Sea and going back for the landing to Berlin would count as "local". Sounds strange.
And: Flight time is the time where no part of the aircraft touches ground.
Time between rotors starting to turn and rotors ending to turn, is called "block time" or "PIC time". So a usual flight in a H300 has about 5 minutes of block time before (engaging clutch, checking magnetos, checking free wheeling unit, contacting tower) and also 5 minutes of block time after air time (cooling down, shutting down).
That's how I count it
Thracian
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Mitch - "What's a landing?"
Yes we do Silsoe
So, when you complete those official & accountable tech logs/SRP's, what definition of a landing do you use?
Mitch, do your or your friends respective flight schools tech logs/SRP's log the number of landings?
Thread Starter
Grumpytroll you really live up to your name cos you sound kind of grumpy, there is no argument and no one is competing with no one, I guess since there isn't an actual definition of the term landing two different Chief flight instructors use their own interpretation of the regs, it's like logging flight time, like canterbury said a lot of people log flight time from the time the engine starts and not collective time i.e. time off the ground.
Silsoe I have my own definition of landing but not an official one.
Since I'm relatively new to the industry I was trying to find out if there actually was a specific definition of the term landing and apparently there isn't so what everyone is saying is just their interpretation and what they think, but until you show me an FAA or EASA regs my question still stand.
It's the same think for PIC experience, the FAA states that to carry passengers I need three take offs and three landing within the preceding 90 days, so according to this all I need is going to the ramp, start the helicopter, pick it up in to a hover, set it down, repeat that 3 times and I'm done right?
I doubt that's how is done but tell me what's wrong with that? I "take off" in to a hover than I "land" back on the ramp.
I think the simple answer is that some regs are just open to interpretation, (unless someone comes up with an actual official definition of take off and landing) because helicopters operate in a different way than fix-wings.
Silsoe I have my own definition of landing but not an official one.
Since I'm relatively new to the industry I was trying to find out if there actually was a specific definition of the term landing and apparently there isn't so what everyone is saying is just their interpretation and what they think, but until you show me an FAA or EASA regs my question still stand.
It's the same think for PIC experience, the FAA states that to carry passengers I need three take offs and three landing within the preceding 90 days, so according to this all I need is going to the ramp, start the helicopter, pick it up in to a hover, set it down, repeat that 3 times and I'm done right?
I doubt that's how is done but tell me what's wrong with that? I "take off" in to a hover than I "land" back on the ramp.
I think the simple answer is that some regs are just open to interpretation, (unless someone comes up with an actual official definition of take off and landing) because helicopters operate in a different way than fix-wings.
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To the layman (which I am), a landing is by common sense complete only if you land, stop the engine, get out and kiss your girlfriend.
I cite royal precedent, where the girl was called Kate.
Serious note - this proves that you are able to restart the engine unaided, which surely is part of the test objective.
I cite royal precedent, where the girl was called Kate.
Serious note - this proves that you are able to restart the engine unaided, which surely is part of the test objective.
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Silsoe I have my own definition of landing but not an official one.
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There is an FAA letter of interpretation out there relating to the three takeoffs and landings required to establish currency. In the letter it says a takeoff is a transition from a stationary position to forward flight and altitude. Landing, is the act of transitioning from altitude to a stationary position. You could make the argument that an approach to a low hover counts as a landing according to their definitions. But why bother. touch the ground and go.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Helicopter Instructor's Handbook: FAA-H-8083-4
By Federal Aviation Administration, US Department of Transportation
By Federal Aviation Administration, US Department of Transportation
Thread Starter
There is an FAA letter of interpretation out there relating to the three takeoffs and landings required to establish currency. In the letter it says a takeoff is a transition from a stationary position to forward flight and altitude. Landing, is the act of transitioning from altitude to a stationary position.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Wow Mitch, your hovering that good to be considered stationary?
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As a PPL(H) student, if it is exercise 25, I log it as cross country.
As regards landing away - for the qualifying cross-country, my flight school requires me to get my log book signed (I don't think this is a strict CAA requirement but seems good practice in case queries are raised is there is an audit). In any case, there is also the landing fee to pay. I think if I hovered over to the tower and tried to do either of these without putting the aircraft down, switching off the engine and getting out, my instructor might ask serious questions about my suitability to fly!
As regards currency to carry passengers - if I was that low on flights in the last three months, I think I would be asking for a check flight before carrying passengers rather than worrying if bouncing the helicopter from ground to hover a few times would count!
Matthew
As regards landing away - for the qualifying cross-country, my flight school requires me to get my log book signed (I don't think this is a strict CAA requirement but seems good practice in case queries are raised is there is an audit). In any case, there is also the landing fee to pay. I think if I hovered over to the tower and tried to do either of these without putting the aircraft down, switching off the engine and getting out, my instructor might ask serious questions about my suitability to fly!
As regards currency to carry passengers - if I was that low on flights in the last three months, I think I would be asking for a check flight before carrying passengers rather than worrying if bouncing the helicopter from ground to hover a few times would count!
Matthew
