Vuichard technique for settling with power?
In that case, I now partly understand why some of the helicopter experience pool is shallow or in this case non existent. ANFI you should be utterly ashamed of yourself, not only are you ignorant of absolute basics but you have now shouted it from the roof tops. What a sad state of affairs you have allowed yourself to deteriorate into. If FL is talking about you - you need to have a long hard look in the mirror before deciding to continue spreading this confusing rubbish you advocate - as an Instructor
Learn by rote, what Mast Bump / Democritus / NigelO stated. Pass their experiences onto as many wannabees as you can. Get them engaged and curious and then pass them onto us, so that we can teach them the correct response!
Understand that Fully developed VR (by which I describe in my musings as: "VR" (as opposed to IVR) is a state of 'uncontrol' inside the helicopter. For most pilots that means they become passengers. ANY recovery procedure (the correct one of nose down and once gaining fwd speed - raise collective) OR attempt to enter auto will depend on when the helo decides to recover (see Hughes 500 very scary (hair raising) experience). ONLY then can you 'pull out'. Until then the RCDI will remain pegged old boy and most certainly won't recover by hundreds of feet
Please tell me you'd been drinking when you posted that ANFI?
Learn by rote, what Mast Bump / Democritus / NigelO stated. Pass their experiences onto as many wannabees as you can. Get them engaged and curious and then pass them onto us, so that we can teach them the correct response!
Understand that Fully developed VR (by which I describe in my musings as: "VR" (as opposed to IVR) is a state of 'uncontrol' inside the helicopter. For most pilots that means they become passengers. ANY recovery procedure (the correct one of nose down and once gaining fwd speed - raise collective) OR attempt to enter auto will depend on when the helo decides to recover (see Hughes 500 very scary (hair raising) experience). ONLY then can you 'pull out'. Until then the RCDI will remain pegged old boy and most certainly won't recover by hundreds of feet
Please tell me you'd been drinking when you posted that ANFI?
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Hughes 500's story tells it best....true VRS is pretty scary and at best unpredictable. We do on occasion put an aircraft into it to demonstrate what it is about for a student or pilot that has not experienced it.....never, ever less than 6,000 ft agl. In my 38 years of flying, it is still the only air exercise that still gets my heart rate up.....
And Anfi.....let me know if you ever come to British Columbia.....I would be more than happy too take you out for a ride.
And Anfi.....let me know if you ever come to British Columbia.....I would be more than happy too take you out for a ride.
This topic is very close to my heart. I and my peers were probably one of the last to demonstrate this as part of the basic flying course (helos) in the British military (Navy). Since then Instructors have only talked about it because they had no alternative.
Hands up how many people "think" they have entered Fully Developed VRS?
As a guide let me suggest the following are prerequisites:
MASSIVE RoD (> 3-4000')
Nil or sluggish response in a minimum of two planes, probably three planes.
Vibration.
IF you don't have all three - whether you THINK you have experienced FDVR or not - guess what....you haven't!
I'm not flying any longer (had my time, done my bit), still in the trade (welded to it) but unlike most other industries the art of flying doesn't change - it is a technique which cannot be shaped to fit in with modern ideals. Subsequently it is what it is.
By this I mean that provided you get a grip of some basic techniques early, you can safeguard that which is most precious (your life) for decades to come
All qualified pilots have ticked most of the training boxes to enable them to fly off into the future and survive most occasions when things get tough, but with an extra amount of effort, research and preparation you could reduce the risk of harm to you and your passengers to an absolute minimum.
Ask yourself this - "Am I conversant and confident about the following helicopter traits that 'may' visit me during my career:"
IVRS
VRS
SWP
PS
LTE
LTA
Tail rotor malfunctions
Ground resonance
Ground loop
(None of the above can be adequately practiced outside of a simulator)
If you (a) understand each one, (b) have a response ready for each one....then you have risk managed your future to the best of your ability. That is a sign of a true professional and no-one can ask more of you.
IF you 'think' you understand these but are not sure - go find someone like many very wise guys on this fantastic forum and talk to them either online or PM them if you don't want to be embarrassed in public. Don't continue in the dark - it might go dark sooner than you think........and forever
Fly safe and keep the damn ball in the middle..............................
Hands up how many people "think" they have entered Fully Developed VRS?
As a guide let me suggest the following are prerequisites:
MASSIVE RoD (> 3-4000')
Nil or sluggish response in a minimum of two planes, probably three planes.
Vibration.
IF you don't have all three - whether you THINK you have experienced FDVR or not - guess what....you haven't!
I'm not flying any longer (had my time, done my bit), still in the trade (welded to it) but unlike most other industries the art of flying doesn't change - it is a technique which cannot be shaped to fit in with modern ideals. Subsequently it is what it is.
By this I mean that provided you get a grip of some basic techniques early, you can safeguard that which is most precious (your life) for decades to come
All qualified pilots have ticked most of the training boxes to enable them to fly off into the future and survive most occasions when things get tough, but with an extra amount of effort, research and preparation you could reduce the risk of harm to you and your passengers to an absolute minimum.
Ask yourself this - "Am I conversant and confident about the following helicopter traits that 'may' visit me during my career:"
IVRS
VRS
SWP
PS
LTE
LTA
Tail rotor malfunctions
Ground resonance
Ground loop
(None of the above can be adequately practiced outside of a simulator)
If you (a) understand each one, (b) have a response ready for each one....then you have risk managed your future to the best of your ability. That is a sign of a true professional and no-one can ask more of you.
IF you 'think' you understand these but are not sure - go find someone like many very wise guys on this fantastic forum and talk to them either online or PM them if you don't want to be embarrassed in public. Don't continue in the dark - it might go dark sooner than you think........and forever
Fly safe and keep the damn ball in the middle..............................
TC: I would hope that a few of the posts on this topic are stickeyed by the Mods, your last included.
I'll raise my hand as one who never ever wanted to experience VRS, and who approached the maneuvers where it was likely (usually some kind of steep approach to a confined area, with a go-no-go point and an escape route already selected. They taught us during my training that we need to avoid it as if our life depends on it.
I'll raise my hand as one who never ever wanted to experience VRS, and who approached the maneuvers where it was likely (usually some kind of steep approach to a confined area, with a go-no-go point and an escape route already selected. They taught us during my training that we need to avoid it as if our life depends on it.
TC - 
Oh dear AnFI - no wonder you have tried to keep your identity a secret - here's hoping FL will properly 'out' you so your students can discover what guff their instructor has been spouting.
FL
what has he been teaching and to whom? Has it just been basic PPL/CPL flying or has he actually been operating a helicopter out in the real world?
Oh dear AnFI - no wonder you have tried to keep your identity a secret - here's hoping FL will properly 'out' you so your students can discover what guff their instructor has been spouting.
FL
The poster is an experienced helicopter pilot (at least 30 years) and a well qualified instructor/examiner.
Chief Bottle Washer
AnFI has not been online since his last post, and will not be contributing further to this thread. As one who was taught and shown developed VRS during training I share the views of others and will not have AnFI tout his bizarre concepts here, regardless of his background.
FL
Quote:
The poster is an experienced helicopter pilot (at least 30 years) and a well qualified instructor/examiner.
what has he been teaching and to whom? Has it just been basic PPL/CPL flying or has he actually been operating a helicopter out in the real world?
Quote:
The poster is an experienced helicopter pilot (at least 30 years) and a well qualified instructor/examiner.
what has he been teaching and to whom? Has it just been basic PPL/CPL flying or has he actually been operating a helicopter out in the real world?
A certain self-professed expert in all matters aviation and especially aerodynamic (yet with no visible CV) rubbishes a bunch of very experienced helicopter pilots (most of whom are well qualified instructors).
Of course, I could be wrong.
Mighty (good evening to you), it's late and I notice that the quote from FL has been 'modified' - the last bit is missing from his original post??
Secondly - I'm tired, can't think straight (quiet Crab!) what exactly do you mean?
Secondly - I'm tired, can't think straight (quiet Crab!) what exactly do you mean?
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Teaching VRS to student pilots is crazy. That **** should be for test pilots only. You older types were off your rocker back in the day!
I always thought this chart was a good visual depiction of the required parameters: Link.
I always thought this chart was a good visual depiction of the required parameters: Link.
Busdriver, I don't agree. Every helicopter pilot should be demonstrated what it looks/feels like when a helicopter enters the early stage of VRS and the various recovery methods. This doesn't mean that every pilot needs to go full retard and wait to recover until the vsi is pegged, but we all should have enough experience to recognize the onset of VRS and also know how to get out of it.
It is worth highlighting that fully developed VRS was historically taught because it was much easier to get into in older helicopters than it is now and simulator technology was very basic.
Back when engines weren't very powerful, rotor discs were bigger and downwash speeds were much lower so it was much easier to get to the sort of RoD where you started to catch up with your downwash.
The standard avoidance figures for VRS - keep the RoD below 500 ft/min when speed is less than 30 kts - were probably far more relevant back in the 50s and 60s when helicopter disc loadings were small.
Unfortunately the teachings haven't moved on with the increases in technology, power and performance of modern helicopters.
For most modern helos I think VRS is now best taught in a simulator, but the old criteria (30 kts/500'/min) needs to be updated when programming the sim.
However in a very light helo (R22 and the like) it is still worth demonstrating the incipient stages of VRS and the recovery so that student will learn to recognise and avoid the preconditions for the phenomenon.
Back when engines weren't very powerful, rotor discs were bigger and downwash speeds were much lower so it was much easier to get to the sort of RoD where you started to catch up with your downwash.
The standard avoidance figures for VRS - keep the RoD below 500 ft/min when speed is less than 30 kts - were probably far more relevant back in the 50s and 60s when helicopter disc loadings were small.
Unfortunately the teachings haven't moved on with the increases in technology, power and performance of modern helicopters.
For most modern helos I think VRS is now best taught in a simulator, but the old criteria (30 kts/500'/min) needs to be updated when programming the sim.
However in a very light helo (R22 and the like) it is still worth demonstrating the incipient stages of VRS and the recovery so that student will learn to recognise and avoid the preconditions for the phenomenon.
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Onset warning signs, especially in a lighter helo, I'll concede it's not really insane. I don't think it's strictly necessary however. I haven't had a problem avoiding VRS over the past ten years and it was not demoed to me during pilot training.
Well that was a grave oversight in your training. It is part of the JAR/EASA syllabus and FAA syllabus. No offence intended, I just find that astonishing.
Can VRS be sim programmed?
Can VRS be sim programmed?
Thread Starter
Onset warning signs, especially in a lighter helo, I'll concede it's not really insane. I don't think it's strictly necessary however.
Anyway... the point is that given the training that I did receive, and seeing where the power was, I was spring-loaded for it to happen, so when it did, no big deal. But we were nearly 200 feet lower afterwards, so it might have been a bit more serious if we'd been at 190 feet instead of 1000.
Practising fully developed VRS would be another matter. It's a bit like practising 6 turn spins. Can be interesting and even fun, but has nothing to do with basic flying skills (imo).
It's the dumbing down syndrome. Happens everywhere.
Modern jetliners where the pilots can't even spell spin and stall never mind do them. Air France losing their last crash because of it.
Modern day pilots aren't pilots they are systems managers. I hear some airlines give their crews some 'real flying practice' occasionally to remind them what it's like to "FLY" an aircraft.
When I joined the RN in '77....we did demo VRS, EOL's from 50'/120kts, double engine off landings, Jack stall, aeros in a helo. None of this is taught now, not one bit. People only talk about that list I gave out earlier.
I often wonder whether the Strathclyde crash was a symptom of some of the above but with a twist. We shall learn soon (I hear the AAIB have completed their findings and are in discussion with relatives before they go to press).
And all of the above was in the military - God only knows what civvy helo pilots are being taught these days!!!
SDSR 2010 (mil defence review) attempted to assuage the critics by directing that 25% of all mil training would be in the simulator by 2015 and 50% by 2020. The conversion to SAR S92 glass cockpit is >90% simulator.
Better than nothing I suppose - at least it addresses each of these helo orientated aerodynamic issues. How many civvy pilots (GA) use a sim, I ask?
It's good to read feedback from people like N5296 and mastbumper who have respect for these 'gottcha's. I worry about people like Busdriver02 (nearly called him a pilot then) who have complete contempt for the very subject matter.
Let's hope the former are in the majority.
Modern jetliners where the pilots can't even spell spin and stall never mind do them. Air France losing their last crash because of it.
Modern day pilots aren't pilots they are systems managers. I hear some airlines give their crews some 'real flying practice' occasionally to remind them what it's like to "FLY" an aircraft.
When I joined the RN in '77....we did demo VRS, EOL's from 50'/120kts, double engine off landings, Jack stall, aeros in a helo. None of this is taught now, not one bit. People only talk about that list I gave out earlier.
I often wonder whether the Strathclyde crash was a symptom of some of the above but with a twist. We shall learn soon (I hear the AAIB have completed their findings and are in discussion with relatives before they go to press).
And all of the above was in the military - God only knows what civvy helo pilots are being taught these days!!!
SDSR 2010 (mil defence review) attempted to assuage the critics by directing that 25% of all mil training would be in the simulator by 2015 and 50% by 2020. The conversion to SAR S92 glass cockpit is >90% simulator.
Better than nothing I suppose - at least it addresses each of these helo orientated aerodynamic issues. How many civvy pilots (GA) use a sim, I ask?
It's good to read feedback from people like N5296 and mastbumper who have respect for these 'gottcha's. I worry about people like Busdriver02 (nearly called him a pilot then
) who have complete contempt for the very subject matter.Let's hope the former are in the majority.
Avoid imitations
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I often wonder whether the Strathclyde crash was a symptom of some of the above but with a twist. We shall learn soon (I hear the AAIB have completed their findings and are in discussion with relatives before they go to press).
But not aerobatics, because iirc, they were prohibited, being outside the terms of the flight manual.
Hi ShyTorque.
We both knew the pilot of the Strathclyde crash. I don't want to divert this thread nor do I want to cast ANY shadow over his exemplary and distinguished record. I qualified my last post with the word "twist" because many of the skills required of an aviator - are perishable over time unless they are constantly practiced.. Many many years will have past since doing one's last (single engine off) in a Gaz piece and (allegedly) losing both engines in one's twin at night.
Aeros were off limits to 'most' Gaz pilots those days.............................but not all
We both knew the pilot of the Strathclyde crash. I don't want to divert this thread nor do I want to cast ANY shadow over his exemplary and distinguished record. I qualified my last post with the word "twist" because many of the skills required of an aviator - are perishable over time unless they are constantly practiced.. Many many years will have past since doing one's last (single engine off) in a Gaz piece and (allegedly) losing both engines in one's twin at night.
Aeros were off limits to 'most' Gaz pilots those days.............................but not all
Avoid imitations
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Aeros were of limits to 'most' Gaz pilots those days.............................but not all
Every pilot of a twin should get to practice entry into autorotation, though, at least annually, during the OPC/LPC.
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Incipient VRS was demonstrated to me and I found it was very easy to get out of. I was told and left to believe that, like low RRPM, if left unchecked you will die, simples.
I have no reason to question the wisdom of my instructor on this matter. I'd imaging fully developed VRS in training does cause wear and tear on your machine and carries unnecessary risk - thanks Hughes500 for sharing your story, incipient VRS is as far as I would ever want to go.
I have no reason to question the wisdom of my instructor on this matter. I'd imaging fully developed VRS in training does cause wear and tear on your machine and carries unnecessary risk - thanks Hughes500 for sharing your story, incipient VRS is as far as I would ever want to go.