Advice on buying a helicopter please......
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Bell 47 - wonderful bit of history, bags of character, but, it is a wonderful bit of history.
R22 - great trainer, a good stepping stone, and the world's top selling piston heli.
H300 - very stable, slow and a bit dated.
Enstrom - no experience, but not many people buy them. Can't believe that's just marketing issues.
Gazelle - absolutely superb helicopter. Excellent helicopter, not only for training, but will keep you happy for years afterwards.
You don't give a budget.
I looked at the MW Helicopters Gazelles at Helitech. They sell the ex-mil version for about £140k. Civvy versions (with an amazingly luxurious leather interior) and a good spec are about £240-250k.
As well as the initial cost, you need to look at what happens when you come to sell.
Unlike many types, the demand for Gazelles is greater than supply so they hold their value. Those prices haven't changed for years - I know because I've watched the market ..... one day!
[ 29 September 2001: Message edited by: Heliport ]
R22 - great trainer, a good stepping stone, and the world's top selling piston heli.
H300 - very stable, slow and a bit dated.
Enstrom - no experience, but not many people buy them. Can't believe that's just marketing issues.
Gazelle - absolutely superb helicopter. Excellent helicopter, not only for training, but will keep you happy for years afterwards.
You don't give a budget.
I looked at the MW Helicopters Gazelles at Helitech. They sell the ex-mil version for about £140k. Civvy versions (with an amazingly luxurious leather interior) and a good spec are about £240-250k.
As well as the initial cost, you need to look at what happens when you come to sell.
Unlike many types, the demand for Gazelles is greater than supply so they hold their value. Those prices haven't changed for years - I know because I've watched the market ..... one day!
[ 29 September 2001: Message edited by: Heliport ]
Ex-mil Gazelles are cheap(ish) to buy, but as they're on a Permit, not a CofA, there are restrictions on their use. If you wanted to help cover costs, a CofA machine can be used by your club for other purposes when you don't need it.
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The following is interesting and may meet your requirements - a few yaers down the road.
"Russian homebuilders seem to scatter kitbuilders: small design company has announced new 2-seat experimental light helo named "Protor". Powered by 150 to 170 Russian-made rotary engine it was claimed to carry 300 to 330 kg of useful load at 140 kmh burning autogaz.
The prototype was first hovered this spring showing stability and reliability which were expected. Though it is first experience for the company, the prototype showed good R&D which was transferred to practice. Second aircraft which is more close to further serial ones is in progress.
"Protor" is expected to appear for customers next year end and no price was announced - we were only told that "the price will be competitive". No word was told about kit availability except of modest "let's see".
Specs, descriptions and photos can be seen at http://protor.narod.ru "
"Russian homebuilders seem to scatter kitbuilders: small design company has announced new 2-seat experimental light helo named "Protor". Powered by 150 to 170 Russian-made rotary engine it was claimed to carry 300 to 330 kg of useful load at 140 kmh burning autogaz.
The prototype was first hovered this spring showing stability and reliability which were expected. Though it is first experience for the company, the prototype showed good R&D which was transferred to practice. Second aircraft which is more close to further serial ones is in progress.
"Protor" is expected to appear for customers next year end and no price was announced - we were only told that "the price will be competitive". No word was told about kit availability except of modest "let's see".
Specs, descriptions and photos can be seen at http://protor.narod.ru "
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Your advice please......
Greetings all,
A question.....I am in the market to purchase a machine for my own private use and possibly for lease back to an established operator. Now my dilemma is that I am unsure what helo to buy...it wont be a brand new one.....more like a good used one. Now I have been watching and reading this forum with interest and have to admit that I enjoy flying both the R22 and the R44 and also the B206.
I dont know what to look at , what will be finacially viable etc.
Please your advice will be appreciated.
Cheers
Mark
A question.....I am in the market to purchase a machine for my own private use and possibly for lease back to an established operator. Now my dilemma is that I am unsure what helo to buy...it wont be a brand new one.....more like a good used one. Now I have been watching and reading this forum with interest and have to admit that I enjoy flying both the R22 and the R44 and also the B206.
I dont know what to look at , what will be finacially viable etc.
Please your advice will be appreciated.
Cheers
Mark
Join Date: Feb 2002
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"if it flies, floats or f**ks, hire it"
(Traditional advice to those with excess cash to spend)
If you are keen to buy anyway, the obvious things to consider are
1. the number of hours you may do each year
2. the number of people that you may wish to carry
3. the speed at which you wish to go
4. the budget available
Less obviously;
5. the need of local operators for leased machines, and if so, what types
6. the availability & size of hangarage wherever you may wish to keep it
Number 5 is important, as it's easier to lease a R22 than an Enstrom or a Bell 47.
As I am sure you are aware, the answers for each of the questions (except number one) will be very different depending on type considered.
If I were in your position, I'd speak to someone like Steve Mitchell at Sloane and a large-ish local operator to try to get a handle on the economics and the local need.
Still, I'm envious of your dilemma!
Later edit; Just for clarity (and following heliport's comments below), I am not in any way associated with Sloane - I had just met Steve again that afternoon and his name sprung to mind.
If you are keen to buy anyway, the obvious things to consider are
1. the number of hours you may do each year
2. the number of people that you may wish to carry
3. the speed at which you wish to go
4. the budget available
Less obviously;
5. the need of local operators for leased machines, and if so, what types
6. the availability & size of hangarage wherever you may wish to keep it
Number 5 is important, as it's easier to lease a R22 than an Enstrom or a Bell 47.
As I am sure you are aware, the answers for each of the questions (except number one) will be very different depending on type considered.
If I were in your position, I'd speak to someone like Steve Mitchell at Sloane and a large-ish local operator to try to get a handle on the economics and the local need.
Still, I'm envious of your dilemma!
Later edit; Just for clarity (and following heliport's comments below), I am not in any way associated with Sloane - I had just met Steve again that afternoon and his name sprung to mind.
Last edited by Draco; 7th Jun 2002 at 20:45.
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Thanks for that guys,
Yep I am aware that economics needs to be considered as well as my own personal needs etc. I am a consultant and my client base is all over the country thus prompting my interest in purchasing a machine. As for hangarage, I have made preliminary inquires at our local airport.
The biggest problem is what could I get with the budget I have and what about insurance etc ?
I am nervous about a R22 in that if I do lease it out and it does by chance end up in a training environment....who knows? ....I was once a 'pupe' as well....lol. So far my initial tendencies are toward an R44 or something along that line but I just dont know.
Any suggestions.
Cheers
Mark.
Yep I am aware that economics needs to be considered as well as my own personal needs etc. I am a consultant and my client base is all over the country thus prompting my interest in purchasing a machine. As for hangarage, I have made preliminary inquires at our local airport.
The biggest problem is what could I get with the budget I have and what about insurance etc ?
I am nervous about a R22 in that if I do lease it out and it does by chance end up in a training environment....who knows? ....I was once a 'pupe' as well....lol. So far my initial tendencies are toward an R44 or something along that line but I just dont know.
Any suggestions.
Cheers
Mark.
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Any suggestions? Sure. FH-1100. Around US$350k for a completely refurbed one with a C-20B. Less cost/hour than a 206 with nearly the same capability. Turbine powered. Soon to be back in full production. Parts - no prob. Plenty of them still around worldwide.
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Do you have space for hangarage at home? There are a couple of training outfits within 10 minutes of your location, and I know that one of them is often short of machines. Some of the owners that lease to them prohibit training and only allow them to use it for sfh, which may reduce or increase the risks of inadvertent damage depending on how you look at it.
Senis Semper Fidelis
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It has to be a Gazzer, sorry Gazelle, I have never flown anything that makes you want to fly all day and ito the darkness, more fun than Sex, well nearly, goes like stink, built like a Landrover and without doubt you arrive when you arrive in one of them, but then I am only green with total envy at your position, now I ll help you, if you help with my five children and a clothes horse wife!
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Thanks Flare...I will look into that......Do you know where I can get any more info ?
Muffin.....Thanks I know of these operators and yeah it's true that what you lose on the swings you gain on the round-a-bouts.....unfortunately I dont have the space at home or that would have been my first option.....We have a guy in our village who has a farm just on the outskirts and he has a R22 that he uses for going to work everyday......way green with envy I am
Vfr...I did not even think of a Gazelle although I have seen a couple in the last fewdays albeit on the back of trucks on the M40 near Oxford and Banbury and they were still in MoD colours.Any ideas where I can get more info.......have got meal vouchers for the kids at McDonalds.
Cheers
Mark
Muffin.....Thanks I know of these operators and yeah it's true that what you lose on the swings you gain on the round-a-bouts.....unfortunately I dont have the space at home or that would have been my first option.....We have a guy in our village who has a farm just on the outskirts and he has a R22 that he uses for going to work everyday......way green with envy I am
Vfr...I did not even think of a Gazelle although I have seen a couple in the last fewdays albeit on the back of trucks on the M40 near Oxford and Banbury and they were still in MoD colours.Any ideas where I can get more info.......have got meal vouchers for the kids at McDonalds.
Cheers
Mark
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YOGI,
With regards to the MOD gazelle's, 12 have just been released to
a MOD disposal company and are currently being prepared for permits, you proberly saw one of these. Great machines but can not be used on public category so personal use only.
If you are interested the disposal company is holding a open day
at London Helicopters Redhill, I know there there will be plenty of
Ex-MOD gazelle's there plus civvy ones to. I think some owners will be there so you could get the low down on operating cost's
etc, I love Gazelle's so I will be there, if you are interseted its next Friday (14th) speak to LHC for invite. I would also speak to MW Helicopters at Stapleford as they are experts with Gazelle's and other types.
Good luck & fly safe what ever you fly.
P.S. this information is solely for your benifit (as requested) and not for any commercial gain of any one company.
Note: No problem at all with your very helpful post, for the reason you've given in your 'PS'. Thanks for being cautious.
Heliport
Rotorheads Moderator
With regards to the MOD gazelle's, 12 have just been released to
a MOD disposal company and are currently being prepared for permits, you proberly saw one of these. Great machines but can not be used on public category so personal use only.
If you are interested the disposal company is holding a open day
at London Helicopters Redhill, I know there there will be plenty of
Ex-MOD gazelle's there plus civvy ones to. I think some owners will be there so you could get the low down on operating cost's
etc, I love Gazelle's so I will be there, if you are interseted its next Friday (14th) speak to LHC for invite. I would also speak to MW Helicopters at Stapleford as they are experts with Gazelle's and other types.
Good luck & fly safe what ever you fly.
P.S. this information is solely for your benifit (as requested) and not for any commercial gain of any one company.
Note: No problem at all with your very helpful post, for the reason you've given in your 'PS'. Thanks for being cautious.
Heliport
Rotorheads Moderator
Last edited by Heliport; 7th Jun 2002 at 16:57.
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Cheers Loose Nut....
The Gazelle looks like an amazing machine and if I was able to let the machine stand and only fly when I wanted to it would be at the top of my 'seriously possible' list but now with you telling me that it cannot be used on the Public Category I will be needing to look at a machine that can be used in this category and that will be economically viable....seems 44 is looking to be the only option unless there is anything else out there.....
Cheers
Mark
The Gazelle looks like an amazing machine and if I was able to let the machine stand and only fly when I wanted to it would be at the top of my 'seriously possible' list but now with you telling me that it cannot be used on the Public Category I will be needing to look at a machine that can be used in this category and that will be economically viable....seems 44 is looking to be the only option unless there is anything else out there.....
Cheers
Mark
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Yogi,
I think that Draco has given a well-balanced summary, and I would make sure you follow it.
MOD Gazelles (nice as they may be to fly) are no good for your requirements, since you can't lease them out - Also I believe it is the case that strictly you cannot carry business passengers in them either (even on a private flight). R44s may be fine but you need to do your homework about what sort of flying and how many hours local operators would expect to put on the aircraft. Not many AOC holders operate the R44, so you might be limited to training and SFH. Even if the R44 is on an AOC, my experience is that in the UK they are used little for AOC work - not much charter customer demand for some reason.
It costs probably £6,000 to put a new single engine type on an AOC, with significant ongoing costs to an AOC operator (OPC and line checks etc.). It is unlikely that an operator would be prepared to add your aircraft type on his AOC purely for the privilege of using your machine (especially if you are frequently using it yourself).
Push potential operators hard - they should be keen to help you. Try to get them to commit to an annual minimum number of hours or at least to give a firm indication of expected hours (and how they came by that guess). Get discount deals on other things if you can (hangarage, engineering). At the very least establish what the charges for these will be.
A B206 may not be very sexy or exciting but it must be the most common AOC helicopter type in the AOC. Almost any AOC can operate it and any engineering outfit can maintain it. This gives you lots of choice in operators and engineering outfits.
I think that Draco has given a well-balanced summary, and I would make sure you follow it.
MOD Gazelles (nice as they may be to fly) are no good for your requirements, since you can't lease them out - Also I believe it is the case that strictly you cannot carry business passengers in them either (even on a private flight). R44s may be fine but you need to do your homework about what sort of flying and how many hours local operators would expect to put on the aircraft. Not many AOC holders operate the R44, so you might be limited to training and SFH. Even if the R44 is on an AOC, my experience is that in the UK they are used little for AOC work - not much charter customer demand for some reason.
It costs probably £6,000 to put a new single engine type on an AOC, with significant ongoing costs to an AOC operator (OPC and line checks etc.). It is unlikely that an operator would be prepared to add your aircraft type on his AOC purely for the privilege of using your machine (especially if you are frequently using it yourself).
Push potential operators hard - they should be keen to help you. Try to get them to commit to an annual minimum number of hours or at least to give a firm indication of expected hours (and how they came by that guess). Get discount deals on other things if you can (hangarage, engineering). At the very least establish what the charges for these will be.
A B206 may not be very sexy or exciting but it must be the most common AOC helicopter type in the AOC. Almost any AOC can operate it and any engineering outfit can maintain it. This gives you lots of choice in operators and engineering outfits.
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Just been doing the same process myself. Forget leasing back a 22 - margins are miserable, insurance is 8% of hull cost (R44 is 3 - 5%) - and it would need to do 400 leaseback hours a year to cover 100 or so for you. So a new 22 would be due for an overhauls in about 4 years!
44 Raven - sensible leaseback fees (£150 an hour). More likely to be used by experienced pilots - so less chance of damage. If you go the Astro route (44 "manual") go for something that's got at least 1000 hours left on it.
What decision did I take ? Up to 100 hrs pa - rent. Do a bulk hours deal on a machine or a bulk hours deal with an operator.
Sponsorship - you'd be surprised how many companies would be interested in having their name on the side and getting some hours in exchange. (I mention this because of your profession).
If you must buy - 44 Raven is the only real way to go. 206Bs are getting very expensive to maintain. Get a Raven in a solid single colour, have the leather trim and have the doors trimmed in leather. Fit bubble doors with tinted plexiglass. You'll have a dream machine.
44 Raven - sensible leaseback fees (£150 an hour). More likely to be used by experienced pilots - so less chance of damage. If you go the Astro route (44 "manual") go for something that's got at least 1000 hours left on it.
What decision did I take ? Up to 100 hrs pa - rent. Do a bulk hours deal on a machine or a bulk hours deal with an operator.
Sponsorship - you'd be surprised how many companies would be interested in having their name on the side and getting some hours in exchange. (I mention this because of your profession).
If you must buy - 44 Raven is the only real way to go. 206Bs are getting very expensive to maintain. Get a Raven in a solid single colour, have the leather trim and have the doors trimmed in leather. Fit bubble doors with tinted plexiglass. You'll have a dream machine.
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Unless you're prepared to have your 'pride and joy' used for training, a JetRanger is a far better choice than the the R44. The B206 is best established single engine Public Transport helicopter, bar none. Whether rational or not, piston engine helicopters are less attractive to most punters, who are prepared to pay a little extra to have a B206. It's acceptable to everyone, the R44 is not. The Raven is a dramatic improvement on the Astro, but it's still an R44.
If a B206 is used for type ratings/SFH, all schools restrict use to experienced pilots, not least because they're concerned about hot-starts.
A single Squirrel is another option, though more expensive. I've not flown one, but have heard good reports.
If a B206 is used for type ratings/SFH, all schools restrict use to experienced pilots, not least because they're concerned about hot-starts.
A single Squirrel is another option, though more expensive. I've not flown one, but have heard good reports.