Helicopter training in the USA
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Helicopter training in the USA
Cheerz guys!
I'm new to this forum, so I'm not sure if this is the right place to be starting this thread. Sorry if doing wrong. The point is I'm from Brazil, considering taking training on helicopters in the US, then would appreciate some tips.
First, I already hold an FAA airplane CPL, I'm also working for an airline in Brazil which made me build over 1000 hours on fixed-wing type. Do I have then any hour credit for the helicopter license? My first plan is to move to the US during my vacation, on june, so I plan on first getting only PPHL due to shortage of time (30 days). Does anybody find it possible?
Second, I would love to stay in California due to the cool weather and awesome beaches around. I would appreciate tips about best helicopter flight schools by there, cheapest, preferably on the coast.
Thanks in advance and happy new year y'all!
I'm new to this forum, so I'm not sure if this is the right place to be starting this thread. Sorry if doing wrong. The point is I'm from Brazil, considering taking training on helicopters in the US, then would appreciate some tips.
First, I already hold an FAA airplane CPL, I'm also working for an airline in Brazil which made me build over 1000 hours on fixed-wing type. Do I have then any hour credit for the helicopter license? My first plan is to move to the US during my vacation, on june, so I plan on first getting only PPHL due to shortage of time (30 days). Does anybody find it possible?
Second, I would love to stay in California due to the cool weather and awesome beaches around. I would appreciate tips about best helicopter flight schools by there, cheapest, preferably on the coast.
Thanks in advance and happy new year y'all!
FAR 61.109 applies, so 30 hours helicopter:
The school is not the deciding factor----it all comes down to the individual instructor. A new one will not be able to help you, an experienced one might.
(c) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in Sec. 61.107(b)(3) of this part, and the training must include at least--
(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a helicopter;
(2) Except as provided in Sec. 61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a helicopter that includes--
(i) One cross-country flight of over 50 nautical miles total distance; and
(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.
(3) 3 hours of flight training with an authorized instructor in a helicopter in preparation for the practical test, which must have been performed within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test; and
(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a helicopter, consisting of at least--
(i) 3 hours cross-country time;
(ii) One solo cross country flight of 100 nautical miles total distance, with landings at three points, and one segment of the flight being a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and
(iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a helicopter;
(2) Except as provided in Sec. 61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a helicopter that includes--
(i) One cross-country flight of over 50 nautical miles total distance; and
(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.
(3) 3 hours of flight training with an authorized instructor in a helicopter in preparation for the practical test, which must have been performed within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test; and
(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a helicopter, consisting of at least--
(i) 3 hours cross-country time;
(ii) One solo cross country flight of 100 nautical miles total distance, with landings at three points, and one segment of the flight being a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and
(iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
Gordy, inasmuch as Victorugopcm is from Brazil, he might not be familiar with the FAA's complex (and often incomprehensible) wording of the FAR's. Thus, you can understand if he's confused by your response. In it you say that he needs 30 hours in helicopters, and then quote an FAR that requires 40 hours of total time, but only 19 hours in helicopters.
FAR 61.109...
(c) Does specify 30 hours of total time but does *not* specify that it must be in a helicopter. For that we have to look deeper.
(c)(1) Says that you have to have 3 hours of cross-country in a helicopter
(c)(2) Says that you have to have 3 hours of night flying in a helicopter
(c)(3) Says that you have to have 3 hours of checkride prep in a helicopter
(c)(4) Says that you have to have 10 hours of solo time in a helicopter.
3+3+3+10 equals 19 hours the way they taught me to do math.
The way 61.109 is constructed, parts (a) through (i) all read the same way: 40 hours of total flight time broken down into 20 hours of dual instruction and 10 "solo flight training." Obviously there's a gap of 10 hours of time there...another 10 hours to add up to 40 total.
One would suppose that the "extra" 10 hours could be comprised of additional dual-instruction time or simply "mess-around" solo time. In any case it is not specified that those "extra" 10 hours need be in a helicopter. Presumably they could be acquired in any type of aircraft.
For instance, I have a Commercial Pilot Certificate. Nobody would demand that, if I wanted to add a Gyroplane rating to my existing Rotorcraft rating that I would have to acquire 30 hours in gyroplanes. Alternatively, if I wanted to add a Multi-engine rating to my existing Commercial Fixed-Wing Certificate, I would not be required to have 30 hours of time in a Multi.
Victorugocpm already has an FAA Private Pilot Certificate. As I see it, he does get credit for some of that flight time when he applies for his Rotorcraft Rating and only needs 19 hours in helicopters.
That is...unless there's some other FAA regulation that specifies the 30 hours you referenced - something which would not surprise me in the least given the way the FAR's are constructed and worded.
FAR 61.109...
(c) Does specify 30 hours of total time but does *not* specify that it must be in a helicopter. For that we have to look deeper.
(c)(1) Says that you have to have 3 hours of cross-country in a helicopter
(c)(2) Says that you have to have 3 hours of night flying in a helicopter
(c)(3) Says that you have to have 3 hours of checkride prep in a helicopter
(c)(4) Says that you have to have 10 hours of solo time in a helicopter.
3+3+3+10 equals 19 hours the way they taught me to do math.
The way 61.109 is constructed, parts (a) through (i) all read the same way: 40 hours of total flight time broken down into 20 hours of dual instruction and 10 "solo flight training." Obviously there's a gap of 10 hours of time there...another 10 hours to add up to 40 total.
One would suppose that the "extra" 10 hours could be comprised of additional dual-instruction time or simply "mess-around" solo time. In any case it is not specified that those "extra" 10 hours need be in a helicopter. Presumably they could be acquired in any type of aircraft.
For instance, I have a Commercial Pilot Certificate. Nobody would demand that, if I wanted to add a Gyroplane rating to my existing Rotorcraft rating that I would have to acquire 30 hours in gyroplanes. Alternatively, if I wanted to add a Multi-engine rating to my existing Commercial Fixed-Wing Certificate, I would not be required to have 30 hours of time in a Multi.
Victorugocpm already has an FAA Private Pilot Certificate. As I see it, he does get credit for some of that flight time when he applies for his Rotorcraft Rating and only needs 19 hours in helicopters.
That is...unless there's some other FAA regulation that specifies the 30 hours you referenced - something which would not surprise me in the least given the way the FAR's are constructed and worded.
The way I read it:
Section 107(b)(3) implies helicopter:
If it were ME signing him off for the practical test, I would make sure he had 20 hours dual and 10 hours solo at a minimum. Others may read the regulations differently.....that is fine, he can go to them. Hopefully the FAA inspector or DPE agrees with them. In at least two FSDO's on the West coast that I deal with, he will need 30 hours. If he wants to only do 19 hours, I suggest he stick to the East coast.
at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in Sec. 61.107(b)(3) of this part,
(3) For a rotorcraft category rating with a helicopter class rating: (i) Preflight preparation;
(ii) Preflight procedures;
(iii) Airport and heliport operations;
(iv) Hovering maneuvers;
(v) Takeoffs, landings, and go-arounds;
(vi) Performance maneuvers;
(vii) Navigation;
(viii) Emergency operations;
(ix) Night operations, except as provided in Sec. 61.110 of this part; and
(x) Postflight procedures.
(ii) Preflight procedures;
(iii) Airport and heliport operations;
(iv) Hovering maneuvers;
(v) Takeoffs, landings, and go-arounds;
(vi) Performance maneuvers;
(vii) Navigation;
(viii) Emergency operations;
(ix) Night operations, except as provided in Sec. 61.110 of this part; and
(x) Postflight procedures.
Gordy, this is why I love the FAR's. They're so clearly written!
Although 61.107(b)(3) implies helicopters, it would seem to me that some of the areas spelled out in 107(b)(3) are common to both airplanes and helicopters (navigation, night operations, non-airframe-specific emergency procedures, etc.). Therefore they need not necessarily be taught in a helicopter. But the cross-referencing rules are far from clear. ("FAR" from clear, get it?)
I guess it can be argued that 19 hours in rotorcraft would be sufficient for an already-certified pilot seeking a rotorcraft rating. But it very well might be a losing argument.
Why didn't they just word 61.109(c) to say, "...20 hours of dual and 10 hours of solo in helicopters." It would've made things a whole lot easier. The reason I ask that is because if we look at the requirements for an Airship rating, 61.109(g)(1) does tell us that the applicant must have 25 hours in airships.
What about a Private Pilot, Glider certificate? Well apparently, if the applicant does not have 40 hours in heavier-than-air aircraft, he/she can get a PPG certificate with only 10 hours of total time according to 61.109(f)(1). If the applicant does have 40 hours or more in heavier-than-air aircraft, then he/she needs only three hours in a glider, 61.109(f)(2). Question: Would a "heavier-than-air" aircraft include a helicopter? What if I had 40 hours of helicopter time and went for my Glider rating? Would I only need three hours? That doesn't seem logical.
The most prudent (if not the cheapest) thing to do would be to just get 30 hours in helicopters and avoid having to argue the inconsistencies and confusing wording in FAR 61.
Although 61.107(b)(3) implies helicopters, it would seem to me that some of the areas spelled out in 107(b)(3) are common to both airplanes and helicopters (navigation, night operations, non-airframe-specific emergency procedures, etc.). Therefore they need not necessarily be taught in a helicopter. But the cross-referencing rules are far from clear. ("FAR" from clear, get it?)
I guess it can be argued that 19 hours in rotorcraft would be sufficient for an already-certified pilot seeking a rotorcraft rating. But it very well might be a losing argument.
Why didn't they just word 61.109(c) to say, "...20 hours of dual and 10 hours of solo in helicopters." It would've made things a whole lot easier. The reason I ask that is because if we look at the requirements for an Airship rating, 61.109(g)(1) does tell us that the applicant must have 25 hours in airships.
What about a Private Pilot, Glider certificate? Well apparently, if the applicant does not have 40 hours in heavier-than-air aircraft, he/she can get a PPG certificate with only 10 hours of total time according to 61.109(f)(1). If the applicant does have 40 hours or more in heavier-than-air aircraft, then he/she needs only three hours in a glider, 61.109(f)(2). Question: Would a "heavier-than-air" aircraft include a helicopter? What if I had 40 hours of helicopter time and went for my Glider rating? Would I only need three hours? That doesn't seem logical.
The most prudent (if not the cheapest) thing to do would be to just get 30 hours in helicopters and avoid having to argue the inconsistencies and confusing wording in FAR 61.
this is why I love the FAR's. They're so clearly written!
One could argue in a court of law that because some of the mauneuvers and procedures in 61.107 (b) are repeated in part (1) airplane, (2)multi engine aiplane & (3) helicopter, that the "intent" of the regulation is that those maneuvers listed in each section are to be completed in the aircraft listed for that specific section......
(I did spend a day in administrative law proceeding arguing the definition of the word "etc" with the FAA West Coast regional legal council.....so I have practice....
)This will all be moot if he decides to train in an R-22 due to the requirementts of SFAR 73(2)(b)(3) anyways..... See Here
(3) A person who does not hold a rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must have had at least 20 hours of dual instruction in a Robinson R-22 helicopter prior to operating it in solo flight. In addition, the person must obtain an endorsement from a certified flight instructor authorized under paragraph (b)(5) of this section that instruction has been given in those maneuvers and procedures, and the instructor has found the applicant proficient to solo a Robinson R-22. This endorsement is valid for a period of 90 days. The dual instruction must include at least the following abnormal and emergency procedures flight training:
(i) Enhanced training in autorotation procedures,
(ii) Engine rotor RPM control without the use of the governor,
(iii) Low rotor RPM recognition and recovery, and
(iv) Effects of low G maneuvers and proper recovery procedures.
(i) Enhanced training in autorotation procedures,
(ii) Engine rotor RPM control without the use of the governor,
(iii) Low rotor RPM recognition and recovery, and
(iv) Effects of low G maneuvers and proper recovery procedures.
Last edited by Gordy; 10th Jan 2014 at 16:45. Reason: Speeeling....one can argue law but not speel
Gordy:
Exactly. And who wants to do that before getting your rating? Nobody. Get the rating first and then do your arguing afterward.
It's like that bit about logging pilot flight time. I know...and I mean I *KNOW* that I could make a good argument in court that once the rotor blades of a helicopter (i.e. the wings) are moving the airframe and therefore aircraft can be considered to be moving and thus pilot flight time begins at rotor start-up. And I'd love to get to make that argument just to see what an impartial judge would say. The logic of the argument is inescapable...except, it seems to that idiotic woman in the FAA's legal department who doesn't know a helicopter from a heliconia.
But that's neither here nor there. Flip the coin, Victor 'Ugo! But if I were you, I'd just get the 30 hours.
One could argue in a court of law...
It's like that bit about logging pilot flight time. I know...and I mean I *KNOW* that I could make a good argument in court that once the rotor blades of a helicopter (i.e. the wings) are moving the airframe and therefore aircraft can be considered to be moving and thus pilot flight time begins at rotor start-up. And I'd love to get to make that argument just to see what an impartial judge would say. The logic of the argument is inescapable...except, it seems to that idiotic woman in the FAA's legal department who doesn't know a helicopter from a heliconia.
But that's neither here nor there. Flip the coin, Victor 'Ugo! But if I were you, I'd just get the 30 hours.
Yep....Mr. "Ugo" should get 30 hours.
On the logging of PIC time, I lean towards the legal opinion of Rebecca MacPherson, prepared by Viola Pando dated April 27, 2007. I am sure this is the one you are referring to. Have to say, I kind of agree with them to an extent. I have never argued a case against either of them..... I always had Naomi Tsuda of WP.
On the logging of PIC time, I lean towards the legal opinion of Rebecca MacPherson, prepared by Viola Pando dated April 27, 2007. I am sure this is the one you are referring to. Have to say, I kind of agree with them to an extent. I have never argued a case against either of them..... I always had Naomi Tsuda of WP.
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FH1100 Pilot you hit the pot. I'm still trying to comprehend some of the mysteries (let's put on this way) about the FAR's. However, things don't work much different down here in Brazil.
I appreciate all of you trying to get things clarified and as far as I also interpret Part 61 would require those 30 hours. However, I'm actually aiming on the easiest, quickest and cheapest way, which appears to me being as stated on Part 141, within an approved flight school. It says on subpart F, appendix B:
"(3) For a rotorcraft helicopter course: 20 hours of flight training from a certificated flight instructor on the approved areas of operation in paragraph (d)(3) of this section that includes at least—
(i) Except as provided in §61.111 of this chapter, 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a helicopter.
(ii) 3 hours of night flight training in a helicopter that includes—
(A) One cross-country flight of more than 50-nautical-miles total distance; and
(B) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.
(iii) 3 hours of flight training in a helicopter in preparation for the practical test within 60 days preceding the date of the test.
[...]
(c) For a rotorcraft helicopter course: 5 hours of solo flight training in a helicopter on the approved areas of operation in paragraph (d)(3) of section No. 4 of this appendix that includes at least—
(1) One solo 100 nautical miles cross country flight with landings at a minimum of three points and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and
(2) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
(d) For a rotorcraft gyroplane course: 5 hours of solo flight training in gyroplanes on the approved areas of operation in paragraph (d)(4) of section No. 4 of this appendix that includes at least—
(1) One solo 100 nautical miles cross country flight with landings at a minimum of three points and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and
(2) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower."
As I get from that, one can be able to earn a helicopter PPL with a minimum of 25 hours.
Would anyone confirm if that proceeds?
About the school, I've been put in touch with people from Civic Helicopters at Palomar airport. Does anybody have any recommendations about school as well as the city?
Thanks for helping
I appreciate all of you trying to get things clarified and as far as I also interpret Part 61 would require those 30 hours. However, I'm actually aiming on the easiest, quickest and cheapest way, which appears to me being as stated on Part 141, within an approved flight school. It says on subpart F, appendix B:
"(3) For a rotorcraft helicopter course: 20 hours of flight training from a certificated flight instructor on the approved areas of operation in paragraph (d)(3) of this section that includes at least—
(i) Except as provided in §61.111 of this chapter, 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a helicopter.
(ii) 3 hours of night flight training in a helicopter that includes—
(A) One cross-country flight of more than 50-nautical-miles total distance; and
(B) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.
(iii) 3 hours of flight training in a helicopter in preparation for the practical test within 60 days preceding the date of the test.
[...]
(c) For a rotorcraft helicopter course: 5 hours of solo flight training in a helicopter on the approved areas of operation in paragraph (d)(3) of section No. 4 of this appendix that includes at least—
(1) One solo 100 nautical miles cross country flight with landings at a minimum of three points and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and
(2) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
(d) For a rotorcraft gyroplane course: 5 hours of solo flight training in gyroplanes on the approved areas of operation in paragraph (d)(4) of section No. 4 of this appendix that includes at least—
(1) One solo 100 nautical miles cross country flight with landings at a minimum of three points and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and
(2) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower."
As I get from that, one can be able to earn a helicopter PPL with a minimum of 25 hours.
Would anyone confirm if that proceeds?
About the school, I've been put in touch with people from Civic Helicopters at Palomar airport. Does anybody have any recommendations about school as well as the city?
Thanks for helping
Last edited by victorugopcm; 11th Jan 2014 at 18:25.
Again if you do it in a Robinson you need a minimum of 20 hours before going solo. To give you good training, as enough to keep you somewhat safe, it is my belief you cannot do it in 25 hours. Now you will prolly find an examiner to pass you somewhere.....but remember:
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One must be able to determine whether he is ready to make his own safeness or not. I have already accumulated enough flight time to get this aware. Providing I am currently flying airplanes, I probably now more about regulations than someone who is just giving the first steps into the sky. The flying skill itself, it doesn't matter how many hours you have flown, you will be always learning something from here or there. Plus, I don't have in my mind finding a helicopter job for now, and 30 days is the time I will have to get things done, so hope that be enough. Thanks for advice anyway.
So Victor,
Do us all a favor and come back on here once you have completed your training and checkride and update us on how many hours it actually took. All too often we give advice to people and they never come back with actual feedback and numbers.
Do us all a favor and come back on here once you have completed your training and checkride and update us on how many hours it actually took. All too often we give advice to people and they never come back with actual feedback and numbers.
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Help! Want to make the right choice
Hey everyone,
I know you must get a lot of these post about people needing help choosing the right path into becoming a helicopter pilot. I have done some research and read some of these forums, but most are either outdated or have a different situation than I am in.
My bio:
I'm 27, married for 18 months now and have a bachelors degree from Louisiana State University. Been out of college for 3 years and we still live in Baton Rouge. My wife has a good job here, but I'm having trouble finding a job in my current career field (sports). Sports jobs in BR are hard to come by and pay very little. Most jobs are out of state and I have already moved away to FL, NY, and TX. I would now like to stay with my wife here and not be away anymore.
Becoming a pilot has been a dream of mine ever since I was little, but I chose to take the college route and get a degree and got married. Now that I've decided to possibly change my career into becoming a helicopter pilot, I could really use some helpful knowledge, insight, and guidance. I am a civilian and will have to pay for flight school out of my own pocket. I already have $19K In student loan debt and the near by flight school is $143K, which I will have to take out another student loan to pay for.
I've talked to a student who already graduated from the program and he said without his GI Bill, he would never take the course esp. paying out of pocket. He said jobs are hard to come by out of flight school (200+ hrs.). Getting a instructor job isn't a guarantee and they pay you very little and you still need (800+ hrs) to meet the minimum qualifications for good job.
What should I do? Please help! I appreciate everyone's input.
I know you must get a lot of these post about people needing help choosing the right path into becoming a helicopter pilot. I have done some research and read some of these forums, but most are either outdated or have a different situation than I am in.
My bio:
I'm 27, married for 18 months now and have a bachelors degree from Louisiana State University. Been out of college for 3 years and we still live in Baton Rouge. My wife has a good job here, but I'm having trouble finding a job in my current career field (sports). Sports jobs in BR are hard to come by and pay very little. Most jobs are out of state and I have already moved away to FL, NY, and TX. I would now like to stay with my wife here and not be away anymore.
Becoming a pilot has been a dream of mine ever since I was little, but I chose to take the college route and get a degree and got married. Now that I've decided to possibly change my career into becoming a helicopter pilot, I could really use some helpful knowledge, insight, and guidance. I am a civilian and will have to pay for flight school out of my own pocket. I already have $19K In student loan debt and the near by flight school is $143K, which I will have to take out another student loan to pay for.
I've talked to a student who already graduated from the program and he said without his GI Bill, he would never take the course esp. paying out of pocket. He said jobs are hard to come by out of flight school (200+ hrs.). Getting a instructor job isn't a guarantee and they pay you very little and you still need (800+ hrs) to meet the minimum qualifications for good job.
What should I do? Please help! I appreciate everyone's input.
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getting the right school
JPoperookie
the 143K schools are mainly part 141 with a lot of VA interaction and where you are often at times handed off to several instructors, so you have some trouble finding your groove when you are just starting out. the school im representing is about 50K less in price, and you also get dual rated and walk away with 250TT. a lot of schools broadcast their estimated costs of tuition at the faa mins, which as most pilots know is not true, most students are ready to go by 50 hrs. i know some schools that are bigger (the ones that charge 143K) wont put you into a check ride till 65+ hrs and thats on the low side, ive met people who got out of their PPL at 83 hrs... also look at where that school is located. nothing against florida or california, or any where in the midwest, but you do want a place that has a diverse amount of geography: mountains that are over a couple thousand of vertical feet, shores, beaches, sand strips, confined mountain landings etc. also from my experience, the more west and north west (not so much seattle and oregon) and more inland away from the coast, in say idaho, montana, utah area, the better the weather is on a constant basis. thats just my two cents at least.
the 143K schools are mainly part 141 with a lot of VA interaction and where you are often at times handed off to several instructors, so you have some trouble finding your groove when you are just starting out. the school im representing is about 50K less in price, and you also get dual rated and walk away with 250TT. a lot of schools broadcast their estimated costs of tuition at the faa mins, which as most pilots know is not true, most students are ready to go by 50 hrs. i know some schools that are bigger (the ones that charge 143K) wont put you into a check ride till 65+ hrs and thats on the low side, ive met people who got out of their PPL at 83 hrs... also look at where that school is located. nothing against florida or california, or any where in the midwest, but you do want a place that has a diverse amount of geography: mountains that are over a couple thousand of vertical feet, shores, beaches, sand strips, confined mountain landings etc. also from my experience, the more west and north west (not so much seattle and oregon) and more inland away from the coast, in say idaho, montana, utah area, the better the weather is on a constant basis. thats just my two cents at least.
