FAA fixed-wing add on?
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Hey all, Sorry about the thread revive.
I am in the same boat as the original thread starter and am seeking some clarification.
I have called several FAA field offices and spoken to various operations inspectors and the topic of using helo hours for ATP FW is just too much for them to comprehend as it is not normal.....so PPRune it is.
I am confident that up to 1250h RW can be used towards a FAA ATP(A) however there a question I have regarding counting Helo CP/Other/Dual.
My issue is this paragraph:
"(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:
(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane -
(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;
(ii) Engaged in operations under subpart K of part 91, part 121, or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or
(iii) That is required by the operating rules of this chapter to have more than one pilot flight crewmember."
Does this mean that all of my helicopter Co-Pilot, Dual and Other time does not count towards the 1500h total?
I have about 500 FW and 1000RW, further I meet all of the other requirements being FW PIC, night PIC, instrument etc.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
Failing this does anyone know who I can write to in the FAA to get a ruling/decision? I have written to them and was pointed to the field offices......
PA
I am in the same boat as the original thread starter and am seeking some clarification.
I have called several FAA field offices and spoken to various operations inspectors and the topic of using helo hours for ATP FW is just too much for them to comprehend as it is not normal.....so PPRune it is.
I am confident that up to 1250h RW can be used towards a FAA ATP(A) however there a question I have regarding counting Helo CP/Other/Dual.
My issue is this paragraph:
"(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:
(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane -
(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;
(ii) Engaged in operations under subpart K of part 91, part 121, or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or
(iii) That is required by the operating rules of this chapter to have more than one pilot flight crewmember."
Does this mean that all of my helicopter Co-Pilot, Dual and Other time does not count towards the 1500h total?
I have about 500 FW and 1000RW, further I meet all of the other requirements being FW PIC, night PIC, instrument etc.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
Failing this does anyone know who I can write to in the FAA to get a ruling/decision? I have written to them and was pointed to the field offices......
PA
The hours need to be in the same Category of aircraft (Airplane, Rotorcraft)
§61.159 Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.
(5) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least—
§61.161 Aeronautical experience: Rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating.
(3) 200 hours of flight time in helicopters, which includes at least 75 hours as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of a pilot in command under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof; and
(5) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least—
§61.161 Aeronautical experience: Rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating.
(3) 200 hours of flight time in helicopters, which includes at least 75 hours as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of a pilot in command under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof; and
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Thanks for the response. I understand the PIC requirement having to be in FW.
The issue lies in the quote above which is an extract from FAR 61.159 (c).
Simply put does helo CP/Dual/Other time count towards FA ATP TT?
PA
The issue lies in the quote above which is an extract from FAR 61.159 (c).
Simply put does helo CP/Dual/Other time count towards FA ATP TT?
PA
Yes your total aeronautical experience counts towards the 1500 hours, however you must meet the individual requirements for the aeroplane category
1500, 1250, 1000, or 750 hours of total flight time
You can get up to 100 hours in an airplane full flight simulator or flight training device, if it was flown during an approved training course at a part 121, 135, 141, or 142 school
200 hours of cross-country flight time
100 hours of night flight time
If you've performed more than 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop, you can count each additional takeoff/landing pair as one hour of night flight time - up to 25 hours of total night credit
50 hours of multi-engine flight time, but you can get 25 hours in a full flight simulator if done in an approved training program
75 hours of instrument flight time (actual or simulated)
You can count up to 25 hours in a flight simulator or a flight training device while training with an instructor
250 hours of pilot in command (PIC) time, including
At least 100 hours of cross-country time
At least 25 hours of night flight time
1500, 1250, 1000, or 750 hours of total flight time
You can get up to 100 hours in an airplane full flight simulator or flight training device, if it was flown during an approved training course at a part 121, 135, 141, or 142 school
200 hours of cross-country flight time
100 hours of night flight time
If you've performed more than 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop, you can count each additional takeoff/landing pair as one hour of night flight time - up to 25 hours of total night credit
50 hours of multi-engine flight time, but you can get 25 hours in a full flight simulator if done in an approved training program
75 hours of instrument flight time (actual or simulated)
You can count up to 25 hours in a flight simulator or a flight training device while training with an instructor
250 hours of pilot in command (PIC) time, including
At least 100 hours of cross-country time
At least 25 hours of night flight time
as long as you have the big ticket items - 1500/250/100/75 you're good to go. The section you mention says you CAN credit FW P2 hours, (presumably in case you think it doesn't count as pilot time?)
What it doesn't say is that you CANNOT count RW P2 hours - it's still pilot time. Just ask your DPE.
What it doesn't say is that you CANNOT count RW P2 hours - it's still pilot time. Just ask your DPE.
Last edited by rudestuff; 18th Oct 2017 at 15:27.
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I am thoroughly confused......
I agree with Rudestuff so far as it doesn't exclude RW CP time. However 61.159 specifies that a "commercial pilot can credit CP time only an airplane". So what about a military pilot?
I would tend to think however that for a full ATP then only PIC/CP FW and PIC RW count.
Adding further to the confusion is this from the rATP section: 61.160
"(f) A person who has 1,500 hours total time as a pilot, 200 hours of cross-country flight time, and otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of § 61.159 may apply for an airline transport pilot certificate under this section."
What does this mean? (and why is it written so round about?)
Does that mean ANY 1500h can be used, i.e: PIC/CP both FW and RW.......
OR does it mean that the only difference between a rATP and a full FW ATP is the cross country component.
If the latter is the case it should read:
"(f) A person who has 200 hours of cross-country flight time and otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of § 61.159 may apply for an airline transport pilot certificate under this section."
Yes, you would think the FAA field offices would know the answer..... I have asked and they don't know..... The best answer I got was that ZERO RW can count towards an FW ATP..... I gave up at that point.
I agree with Rudestuff so far as it doesn't exclude RW CP time. However 61.159 specifies that a "commercial pilot can credit CP time only an airplane". So what about a military pilot?
I would tend to think however that for a full ATP then only PIC/CP FW and PIC RW count.
Adding further to the confusion is this from the rATP section: 61.160
"(f) A person who has 1,500 hours total time as a pilot, 200 hours of cross-country flight time, and otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of § 61.159 may apply for an airline transport pilot certificate under this section."
What does this mean? (and why is it written so round about?)
Does that mean ANY 1500h can be used, i.e: PIC/CP both FW and RW.......
OR does it mean that the only difference between a rATP and a full FW ATP is the cross country component.
If the latter is the case it should read:
"(f) A person who has 200 hours of cross-country flight time and otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of § 61.159 may apply for an airline transport pilot certificate under this section."
Yes, you would think the FAA field offices would know the answer..... I have asked and they don't know..... The best answer I got was that ZERO RW can count towards an FW ATP..... I gave up at that point.
§61.159 Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:
(5) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least—
(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and
(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.
(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and
(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.
(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:
(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane
(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane
Does this mean that all of my helicopter Co-Pilot, Dual and Other time does not count towards the 1500h total?
Last edited by MarcK; 19th Oct 2017 at 03:23. Reason: Extended the discussion
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https://www.envoyair.com/pilots/roto...ition-program/
Now, while this is aimed at U.S. military rotary pilots, the numbers remain correct for others with the exception of the total time figure, which is the 1500 total time quoted all over the place here.
A curious thing about the FAA. The Administration is not usually the best place to go for interpretations of the regulations they purportedly write. Often, airmen in the field who are doing what you're doing (trying to do something that hasn't been done much) drive interpretation. But generally, private enterprise interprets new regulations and implements them to their own programs and purposes.
If you have 1250+ and 0 fixed-wing, you'll need 250 fixed PIC for the ATP.
A lot of former military helicopter pilots are taking this route, and operations like Envoy are in the business of doing it efficiently.
Why Military pilots?
We are specifically targeting rotor-wing pilots for a career in commercial aviation.
Military aviators qualify for the lowest minimum R-ATP certificate at just 750 hours total time and 250 fixed-wing PIC
Most military aviators have the total time requirements but lack the fixed-wing component
Envoy has partnered with Coast Flight Training in two locations — San Diego, California and San Marcos, Texas — to offer a fixed-wing transition program
Envoy will financially help you reach the regulatory airplane certifications and experience requirements
We are specifically targeting rotor-wing pilots for a career in commercial aviation.
Military aviators qualify for the lowest minimum R-ATP certificate at just 750 hours total time and 250 fixed-wing PIC
Most military aviators have the total time requirements but lack the fixed-wing component
Envoy has partnered with Coast Flight Training in two locations — San Diego, California and San Marcos, Texas — to offer a fixed-wing transition program
Envoy will financially help you reach the regulatory airplane certifications and experience requirements
A curious thing about the FAA. The Administration is not usually the best place to go for interpretations of the regulations they purportedly write. Often, airmen in the field who are doing what you're doing (trying to do something that hasn't been done much) drive interpretation. But generally, private enterprise interprets new regulations and implements them to their own programs and purposes.
If you have 1250+ and 0 fixed-wing, you'll need 250 fixed PIC for the ATP.
A lot of former military helicopter pilots are taking this route, and operations like Envoy are in the business of doing it efficiently.
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Dual is under instruction....
Um...Lifting.... That is exactly the program I am looking at, I have written to them and am waiting for a response. I am Mil rotary, just not US, so need the 1500h. When I get it Ill post it here for everyone's education.
Like you have pointed out, they are the ones who have to actually negotiate the rules so I would be surprised if they can't answer the question accurately.
MarcK..... It makes me wonder if Dual time can be counted if it was in a helicopter... its not CP time so shouldn't fall under paragraph (c) that you have quoted.
Classic rules...."sole manipulator".... is this just one pilot on the controls at anyone time?...(no need for an answer...just musing)
As a side note I tried to import some things a year or so ago. I didn't know whether I could so I contacted Customs and explained the items. Simply put they weren't able to tell me and suggested I hire a broker to determine whether it could be imported or not. Again a government agency relying on a civilian enterprise to determine (make the argument) how the rules apply.
Like I said I am looking forward to Envoy's response and will pass it onto all.
Um...Lifting.... That is exactly the program I am looking at, I have written to them and am waiting for a response. I am Mil rotary, just not US, so need the 1500h. When I get it Ill post it here for everyone's education.
Like you have pointed out, they are the ones who have to actually negotiate the rules so I would be surprised if they can't answer the question accurately.
MarcK..... It makes me wonder if Dual time can be counted if it was in a helicopter... its not CP time so shouldn't fall under paragraph (c) that you have quoted.
Classic rules...."sole manipulator".... is this just one pilot on the controls at anyone time?...(no need for an answer...just musing)
As a side note I tried to import some things a year or so ago. I didn't know whether I could so I contacted Customs and explained the items. Simply put they weren't able to tell me and suggested I hire a broker to determine whether it could be imported or not. Again a government agency relying on a civilian enterprise to determine (make the argument) how the rules apply.
Like I said I am looking forward to Envoy's response and will pass it onto all.
Last edited by Professional Amateur; 19th Oct 2017 at 05:51.
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
...
(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—
(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;
... (and some more conditions)
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
...
(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—
(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;
... (and some more conditions)
You can ALWAYS log PIC time in an aircraft for which you are rated when you are the sole manipulator of the controls, regardless of the status of your medical and the flight conditions the flight is conducted in. This is true when you are receiving dual instruction and is true even if you are not qualified to act as PIC (although of course somebody needs to be qualified to act as PIC).
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Never call it a 'license' (or 'licence', if you prefer) around the FAA. It's a 'certificate'. They get rather sniffy about that sort of thing. Even we Yanks make that error, but they still don't like it.
I have a friend who recently finished the program with Envoy and is now flying right seat for them in the ERJ-something or other. He was a typical naval helicopter / civil helicopter guy with a couple hundred hours of fixed-wing time. He got his ME rating and built the few dozen hours he needed to tick off the boxes for the ATP and then he was off to his type course and onto the line. Took him a couple of months for each bit, perhaps 6 months in total.
I have a friend who recently finished the program with Envoy and is now flying right seat for them in the ERJ-something or other. He was a typical naval helicopter / civil helicopter guy with a couple hundred hours of fixed-wing time. He got his ME rating and built the few dozen hours he needed to tick off the boxes for the ATP and then he was off to his type course and onto the line. Took him a couple of months for each bit, perhaps 6 months in total.
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Envoy is actively recruiting military rotor pilots
https://www.envoyair.com/pilots/roto...ition-program/
Capt in 2 yrs flow thru to AA in 5 yrs or so they advertise.
https://www.envoyair.com/pilots/roto...ition-program/
Capt in 2 yrs flow thru to AA in 5 yrs or so they advertise.
