ENG Ship down in Seattle

[mickjoebill]

Sad to lose two dedicated media guys.
It is regrettable that an occupant of the car suffered burns to 20% of his body.

By my account of TV film and photography accidents from 2000 to 2013 this is the sole incident where a member of the public has been injured.


Mickjoebill

[Art of flight]

When the eye witness reports 'hung up on cables' could this be confused with a fuel hose. I have no knowledge of this specific operation, but do know of pilots (colleagues) who have taken off with such things as fuel hose, ground power cable, groundcrewman! still attached. I would not have thought cables would be in the vicinity of the elevated pad unless as some sort of personnel safety barrier?

[SilsoeSid]

Art, going to google maps street view and looking up at the pad, it could mean the sourrounding barrier that looks as though it stays in place during heliops.

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=spa...8.07,,0,-29.74

[Art of flight]

Thanks Sid, Guess I expected to see something akin to the lowering type of cable barrier surrounding the back of a ship.

[TacomaSailor]

Silence as it fell from platform?

Seattle PI (newspaper web site) is reporting:

"Gary Knapinski, a construction worker from Snohomish, said he was walking to his car when the helicopter dove to the ground.

A panhandler was shouting to him over the roar of the chopper taking off, Knapinski recalled. The next moment, silence descended as the helicopter's engine quit.

As he looked on, he watched the helicopter's nose drop as it fell."

Helicopter crash kills 2 near Space Needle in Seattle - seattlepi.com

[SilsoeSid]

The National Transportation Safety Board, whose investigators were at the scene, planned to clear the wreckage by Tuesday evening and issue a preliminary report in five days, said Dennis Hogenson, acting deputy NTSB chief for the western Pacific region.

"We're looking at the environment, the weather, the pilot, the operators in the helicopter, as well as the helicopter itself, as well as the background of all of the above," he said.

The helicopter, a 2003 Eurocopter AS350, appeared to have rotated counterclockwise before it crashed, he said. He added that the helicopter had been flown on Tuesday morning and was brought back to the downtown area to refuel.

Counter clockwise, looking at the ac from above or below?

Counter clockwise looking from below would be nose to the right, which in a 350 would indicate an engine problem

[AnFI]

more likely to be tail rotor knocked off on the barrier.
very unlikely to be the engine.

[chopjock]

Counter clockwise, looking at the ac from above or below?

That's almost as bad as saying "The car took a left turn, viewed from the front or the rear?"

[AnFI]

SS is quite right clockwise and anti clockwise are deficient descriptors, similar to 'left' and 'right' which lack the reference provided in the terms 'port' and 'starboard'. CCWWVfA and CWWVfA sounds fine in Welsh

[SilsoeSid]

Counter clockwise, looking at the ac from above or below?

That's almost as bad as saying "The car took a left turn, viewed from the front or the rear?"

chop jock. If you are driving a car in reverse and told to turn left, which way do you turn?
As the reported comment was "appeared" to have rotated counterclockwise before it crashed", we'll have to know where the person that made the comment was looking from before rubbishing it won't we.

When you're flying your remote helicopters around, looking from below, when you yaw to the left it will appear to rotate anti clockwise. However if you were controlling it from above, it will appear to rotate clockwise. So, if I was stood next to you and asked you to turn your model anti clockwise, which way would you turn it?

[chopjock]

chop jock. If you are driving a car in reverse and told to turn left, which way do you turn?

The car's left.

As the reported comment was "appeared" to have rotated counterclockwise before it crashed", we'll have to know where the person that made the comment was looking from before rubbishing it won't we.

If I saw a helicopter rotate counterclockwise, it would still be counterclockwise from which ever angle my point of view was. (I can work that out by looking at the nose).

When you're flying your remote helicopters around, looking from below, when you yaw to the left it will appear to rotate anti clockwise

No. it will be yawing nose left. (which if anything viewed from below is clockwise) but actually I would describe it as rotating anticlockwise.

So, if I was stood next to you and asked you to turn your model anti clockwise, which way would you turn it?

Left. We are talking about the nose of the fuselage.

As with almost every vehicle, left is nose left. And if it rotates, left is anticlockwise,(just like the steering wheel of a car) which is how any intelligent person would see it.

[SilsoeSid]

If I saw a helicopter rotate counterclockwise, it would still be counterclockwise from which ever angle my point of view was. (I can work that out by looking at the nose).

Aah choppy, I thought you'd find this hard to understand, let me try to make it even more simple for you;

Place a piece of blue tack on the top of your mobile phone, to represent the front/nose.
Hold your mobile phone in front of you, about chest level.
Rotate it clockwise.
Keeping the plane of rotation horizontal, continue to rotate the phone and raise the phone above your head.

Please now look up at the phone and tell us the phones apparent direction of rotation.

[chopjock]

Please now look up at the phone and tell us the phones apparent direction of rotation.

In the real world, there is an applied standard. For example a screw usually tightens in a clockwise direction. Rotor head rotation is described as viewed from above. Aircraft yawing left as viewed from being the right way up and looking forward. Not outside looking in and up side down.

So I do not see your point of view.

[SilsoeSid]

So, if I was stood next to you and asked you to turn your model anti clockwise, which way would you turn it?

Left. We are talking about the nose of the fuselage.

Choppy, choppy, choppy, what are you like?

If your model aircraft was below our eye level and you turned it anti clockwise, the nose would indeed need to go to the left …
… however, if your model ac was above our eye level, lets say in a 20ft hover and you were to turn it anti clockwise, you'd have to move the nose to the right.

[Old Age Pilot]

Sid & Chop,

You both have a point. The key is the applied standard. If the eye witness was a helicopter professional he may say it was rotating "clockwise" according to the applied standard. But if the witness was a complete layman he will say it how he saw it; "anticlockwise".

But don't let me interrupt, boys.
Carry on

[chopjock]

If your model aircraft was below our eye level and you turned it anti clockwise, the nose would indeed need to go to the left …
… however, if your model ac was above our eye level, lets say in a 20ft hover and you were to turn it anti clockwise, you'd have to move the nose to the right.

Well of course I can see that. But if a helicopter is rotating anticlockwise and climbs from a starting point below you to a point higher, it's still rotating the same way, it's just your view point that is changing. So hence my point about a universal standard.
It is generally recognised that a helicopter yawing left is rotating in an anticlockwise direction.

[SilsoeSid]

In the real world, there is an applied standard. For example a screw usually tightens in a clockwise direction. Rotor head rotation is described as viewed from above. Aircraft yawing left as viewed from being the right way up and looking forward. Not outside looking in and up side down.
So I do not see your point of view.

My point is that if the statement came from a by-standing Joe Public type person, looking up at the aircraft as they heard the bang, they would describe the rotation as they saw it.

"In the real world, there is an applied standard."
The 'applied standard' of describing directions of rotation that you mention, can only be relevant if the eye witness describing it, knows what the standard is.

"For example a screw usually tightens in a clockwise direction."
Don't do much car mechanics then do you? A right handed screw/bolt has to be turned the 'wrong' way if you come at it from a different angle!

"Rotor head rotation is described as viewed from above. Aircraft yawing left as viewed from being the right way up and looking forward. Not outside looking in and up side down."
As far as Joe Public is concerned, the ac appeared to have rotated counterclockwise before it crashed"
This would mean that the aircraft from their view point appeared to rotate anticlockwise, regardless of your applied standard that as I mentioned, they might not know about.

[SilsoeSid]

But if a helicopter is rotating anticlockwise and climbs from a starting point below you to a point higher, it's still rotating the same way, it's just your view point that is changing.

By jove, I think its finally got there

If you read my initial post on this before jumping straight in with the attack as you tend to do, you would have understood the quote from the link;
"The helicopter, a 2003 Eurocopter AS350, appeared to have rotated counterclockwise before it crashed,"

… and in turn you would have understood my post of "Counter clockwise, looking at the ac from above or below?"


Still, don't let reading posts and trying to understand them get in the way of a good argument eh!

[chopjock]

That's almost as bad as saying "The car took a left turn, viewed from the front or the rear?"

That was hardly an attack.
But if you want to think the car turned right just because you saw it from in front, that's up to you.

[Gemini Twin]

My wife says that "right" is "the other left".