AW139 G-LBAL helicopter crash in Gillingham, Norfolk
Avoid imitations
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SASless, NDB approaches to airfields still aren't too uncommon in UK (unfortunately). But I've not had to carry out an NDB hold, other than for an IR revalidation, for well over ten years now. But GPS obviously wins for accuracy and for situational awareness, hands down every single time, especially with modern moving map avionics fitted.
Aw Gee....no more Fixed Card NDB Holds and Approaches with no Gyro's.....whatever happened to Training Standards!
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Just so we understand what we are up against these are some facts of life that make our lives even more complicated when trying to discuss standards.
1. There are parts of the world where it is normal to award an IR with no ILS experience. Russia, China, Australia? Brazil and probably others where there are simply no ILS outside the national capital or other major airports.
2. Russia certainly and others maybe have an infrastructure built around the twin NDB approach with minima that equates to CAT 1 ILS or close to it.
3. From what I see at work the TR candidates that arrive from all over the globe have a universally weak IF capability due to minimal training compounded by minimal practice combined with little practical experience, All this is compounded by ab LPC/OPC environment that lacks rigour and oversight.
CRAB - To operate outside the scope of the RFM without formal approval from the NAA or the OEM is inviting a legal issue in the event of any kind of incident. I see no reason in theory why such authority couldn't be sought. Some years ago the AAIB reported on a serious incident involving a Bell 214 ST during a night approach offshore. They (AAIB) recommended we practice zero vis IF take offs from the hover in order to experience and learn the techniques for recovering from a situation of IMC/low speed - and the UK CAA agreed and mandated these in LPC/OPC's. I can remember doing them behind the screens in a 365N. Easy peasy for RN AS SK guys, it's second nature.
G.
1. There are parts of the world where it is normal to award an IR with no ILS experience. Russia, China, Australia? Brazil and probably others where there are simply no ILS outside the national capital or other major airports.
2. Russia certainly and others maybe have an infrastructure built around the twin NDB approach with minima that equates to CAT 1 ILS or close to it.
3. From what I see at work the TR candidates that arrive from all over the globe have a universally weak IF capability due to minimal training compounded by minimal practice combined with little practical experience, All this is compounded by ab LPC/OPC environment that lacks rigour and oversight.
CRAB - To operate outside the scope of the RFM without formal approval from the NAA or the OEM is inviting a legal issue in the event of any kind of incident. I see no reason in theory why such authority couldn't be sought. Some years ago the AAIB reported on a serious incident involving a Bell 214 ST during a night approach offshore. They (AAIB) recommended we practice zero vis IF take offs from the hover in order to experience and learn the techniques for recovering from a situation of IMC/low speed - and the UK CAA agreed and mandated these in LPC/OPC's. I can remember doing them behind the screens in a 365N. Easy peasy for RN AS SK guys, it's second nature.
G.
Tightgit
Although I sympathise with corporate pilots needing to carry out these types of low level IFR operations in order to keep the customer happy. My worry whilst I'm plodding around at VFR at night with a 600 ft cloud base in open country is someone carrying out some local IMC GPS (or any other type of) let down to a site that unbeknown to me is co located with my actual position at the same time!!
(TBH, the 600 ft cloud base I mentioned was for the benefit of the boss! You'll struggle to get me out into the bondu with a cloud base less than 1000 ft!, but the sentiment still holds)
(TBH, the 600 ft cloud base I mentioned was for the benefit of the boss! You'll struggle to get me out into the bondu with a cloud base less than 1000 ft!, but the sentiment still holds)
Avoid imitations
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Handysnaks, just keep your transponder Mode C switched on and chances are, you'll be known about, ATC coverage or not. TCAS/TAS is a great piece of equipment and most modern IFR helicopters have it as standard.
Tightgit
Err, yes, thanks for that Shy, I will do (as well as also looking at my own TCAD screen) although (and I am about to anthromorphize a bit of electrical equipment), it does tend occasionally to keep things to itself until the range is within a kilometre, just to ensure my heart rate can accelerate from about 60 bpm to 120 !!
Last edited by handysnaks; 21st Oct 2015 at 01:08. Reason: Because this bl00dy macbook thinks it knows what I want to say!!
Is that an ATC Workaround done off the cuff?
You do use the same Radio Frequency VFR and IMC in Un-Controlled Airspace don't you?
If you are dropping out Cloud at night in your fully IFR Turbine Twin with the Boss Fellah in the back sipping his Champagne....will you be chatting with any other traffic in the area that might darting about VFR under the Cloud Layer?
TCAS/TCAD is nice but doing a bit of Traffic Separation by Radio would seem a welcome addition.
You do use the same Radio Frequency VFR and IMC in Un-Controlled Airspace don't you?
If you are dropping out Cloud at night in your fully IFR Turbine Twin with the Boss Fellah in the back sipping his Champagne....will you be chatting with any other traffic in the area that might darting about VFR under the Cloud Layer?
TCAS/TCAD is nice but doing a bit of Traffic Separation by Radio would seem a welcome addition.
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Only 120? You want to try an IFR letdown at night with a 600 ft cloud base! 
Sasless, having flown in UK, you know the answer to most of those questions is NO.
Military aircraft fly around almost exclusively on UHF, Civil traffic is on VHF, getting anything other than a Basic service below 3000' is very unlikely unless you are in the vicinity of an airfield with radar and , whilst there is a low level common frequency (UHF) for military users, there is no VHF equivalent mandated for GA.
You only have to spend 5 minutes listening to London Information (VHF) to realise how many people there are airborne, especially on a nice day, who don't have much of a clue about what they are doing or where they are going.
Fortunately, at night and in crap weather, it is only those who have to be out there to earn a living who run the risk of bumping into each other.
TCAS does mitigate the risk to a degree, providing everyone's transponder is working properly (and turned on) but self-positioning GPS letdowns to private sites IMC to visual seem to be asking for trouble.
Military aircraft fly around almost exclusively on UHF, Civil traffic is on VHF, getting anything other than a Basic service below 3000' is very unlikely unless you are in the vicinity of an airfield with radar and , whilst there is a low level common frequency (UHF) for military users, there is no VHF equivalent mandated for GA.
You only have to spend 5 minutes listening to London Information (VHF) to realise how many people there are airborne, especially on a nice day, who don't have much of a clue about what they are doing or where they are going.
Fortunately, at night and in crap weather, it is only those who have to be out there to earn a living who run the risk of bumping into each other.
TCAS does mitigate the risk to a degree, providing everyone's transponder is working properly (and turned on) but self-positioning GPS letdowns to private sites IMC to visual seem to be asking for trouble.
Thank you for the explanation....and as it has been some time since I enjoyed flying in the UK....I did not wish to make assertions that might not still be the case.
The thing that stood out to me while flying there is what you do not have in the UK that we do in the USA when it comes to Aviation Infrastructure. We are quite blessed here mostly due to the way we fund our system as compared to the UK method.
Nick Lappos had done some test flying at Sikorsky with an S-76 in the past that proved Low Altitude Helicopter IFR improvements are quite feasible but have yet to be fully incorporated into the national airspace system.
Part of those improvements include Point in Space Approaches and related techniques.
Perhaps along with other changes in the way we look at Helicopter IFR Flight there might be some thought given to Low Altitude IFR Operations by Helicopters to better afford us in the Helicopter Industry more flexibility in the use of the unique capabilities of the Helicopter but at the same time add a bit of structure to the way we use those Capabilities.
The thing that stood out to me while flying there is what you do not have in the UK that we do in the USA when it comes to Aviation Infrastructure. We are quite blessed here mostly due to the way we fund our system as compared to the UK method.
Nick Lappos had done some test flying at Sikorsky with an S-76 in the past that proved Low Altitude Helicopter IFR improvements are quite feasible but have yet to be fully incorporated into the national airspace system.
Part of those improvements include Point in Space Approaches and related techniques.
Perhaps along with other changes in the way we look at Helicopter IFR Flight there might be some thought given to Low Altitude IFR Operations by Helicopters to better afford us in the Helicopter Industry more flexibility in the use of the unique capabilities of the Helicopter but at the same time add a bit of structure to the way we use those Capabilities.
The answer to all of this commentary lies squarely at the foot of the pilots. If you ain't comfortable doing it, don't do it. I have lined up on a low viz runway on many occasions and asked the SIC if he/she wanted to continue. A few times we both agreed it wasn't worth the risk and found our way back to the hangar. The customer didn't get his ride, but tough. Our SOPs and management backed us up and our decisions were not questioned. Never fly outside your comfort zone. Make a 180, land or just don't take off. If you have to worry about having a job when you get back, maybe you need to find another one.
I once had a Manager walk out onto our Runway....cast an eye skyward....and look over at me as I stood there Tea Cup in hand clearly in hurry not to go anywhere.
He then looked at his watch and then again at me.
I looked at my Watch and suggested he might one day buy a Rolex like mine....and if he wanted to go flying the Keys were in my Cab.
He told a Training Captain to take my Co-Pilot and aircraft and go make the run....to be told by the Co-Pilot that he was assigned to fly with me that day and had no intentions of changing the roster. The Training Captain put his fingers to his Brow and found a Co-Pilot and aircraft to fly.
That is how a Crew should work together....weather below Company Minimums....get another Cup of Tea and wait for a distinct improvement in the weather. Once you say "No!"...the harder someone tries to coerce you to fly....just become far more firm in your stance.
The weather was good in the Oil Field Ten miles away but the Takeoff location was blanketed with Fog with less than a Hundred Yards Visibility and no way to safely comply with the two Takeoff Profiles authorized by Company Procedures.
Sometimes you just have to say "NO!".
If I had gone and nothing bad happened I would not have gotten a single Red Cent more in my pay packet.....but if something had gone wrong....the Company Management would have dropped me quicker than a used Condom to protect their own backsides.
Later on that same Training Captain obtained employment with the CAA.
He then looked at his watch and then again at me.
I looked at my Watch and suggested he might one day buy a Rolex like mine....and if he wanted to go flying the Keys were in my Cab.
He told a Training Captain to take my Co-Pilot and aircraft and go make the run....to be told by the Co-Pilot that he was assigned to fly with me that day and had no intentions of changing the roster. The Training Captain put his fingers to his Brow and found a Co-Pilot and aircraft to fly.
That is how a Crew should work together....weather below Company Minimums....get another Cup of Tea and wait for a distinct improvement in the weather. Once you say "No!"...the harder someone tries to coerce you to fly....just become far more firm in your stance.
The weather was good in the Oil Field Ten miles away but the Takeoff location was blanketed with Fog with less than a Hundred Yards Visibility and no way to safely comply with the two Takeoff Profiles authorized by Company Procedures.
Sometimes you just have to say "NO!".
If I had gone and nothing bad happened I would not have gotten a single Red Cent more in my pay packet.....but if something had gone wrong....the Company Management would have dropped me quicker than a used Condom to protect their own backsides.
Later on that same Training Captain obtained employment with the CAA.
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SAS
Couldn't agree more - I call it applying the 'at the subsequent enquiry' test.
My 'life changing moment' came after a fatal accident the cause of which could equally be parcelled out between the pilot, the customer and the regulator with a slice going the operator's way too. Those with power or money, or both can use that leverage to escape the consequences of their actions - and so it was - leaving the poor old pilot to 'cop the whack' as they say up North.
Ever since, I have applied that test (imagine you are standing in the dock) and it has served me well. Maybe that explains why I am such an awkward and opinionated old bugger.
G.
My 'life changing moment' came after a fatal accident the cause of which could equally be parcelled out between the pilot, the customer and the regulator with a slice going the operator's way too. Those with power or money, or both can use that leverage to escape the consequences of their actions - and so it was - leaving the poor old pilot to 'cop the whack' as they say up North.
Ever since, I have applied that test (imagine you are standing in the dock) and it has served me well. Maybe that explains why I am such an awkward and opinionated old bugger.
G.
When you the Pilot show up in Court....the Operator's Legal Counsel represents the Operator....not you the Pilot.
The Insurance Company's Legal Counsel represents the Insurance Company.
The Passenger's Legal Counsel....
Well you can see how that is going.
It might be your Next of Kin that has to stand in the Dock and fight to save their Home and Income against all the others.
No sense risking all that by making a less than stellar decision.
The Insurance Company's Legal Counsel represents the Insurance Company.
The Passenger's Legal Counsel....
Well you can see how that is going.
It might be your Next of Kin that has to stand in the Dock and fight to save their Home and Income against all the others.
No sense risking all that by making a less than stellar decision.
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i have literally asked pushy pax if they want to die. That gets their attention.
The other thing that i have asked passengers reasonably often, is "how do i face your parents or kids at your funeral, because i crashed and was the only survivor?" Some get it, but generally if I've got to the stage of actually having to ask them that, they really don't understand how dangerous the situation they are asking to be put in actually is...
Or depending on the client, you can just let out a crazy laugh and say F$#k no!
The other thing that i have asked passengers reasonably often, is "how do i face your parents or kids at your funeral, because i crashed and was the only survivor?" Some get it, but generally if I've got to the stage of actually having to ask them that, they really don't understand how dangerous the situation they are asking to be put in actually is...
Or depending on the client, you can just let out a crazy laugh and say F$#k no!
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SuperF;
I normally say "I'm not paid enough to die for this." that usually does it. I've been on the receiving end of some pretty severe shoutings at over the last 28 years of rotary, I'm old enough, ugly enough and bolshie enough to tell it how it is.
The owner of LBAL bonded all his pilots, I wonder how often the bond threat was used...........................
SND
I normally say "I'm not paid enough to die for this." that usually does it. I've been on the receiving end of some pretty severe shoutings at over the last 28 years of rotary, I'm old enough, ugly enough and bolshie enough to tell it how it is.
The owner of LBAL bonded all his pilots, I wonder how often the bond threat was used...........................
SND
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A lot of this thread could be applied to engineering. I was in charge of heavy maintenance on several types of Helicopters during my career, as I always preferred this to boring repetitive check ones.
My first manager was a great guy, who stated, "my job is to keep the directors off you backs"
My subsequent managers could not take this pressure, and passed it straight on, I have lost count of the number of times I have faced a red faced guy having hysterics because an aircraft was not out running on the totally unrealistic day it was planned to be.
We used to trick one guy in particular by pushing the aircraft out of the hangar,(more so on a nice day), and carrying on working out side, it used to take him half a day to realize that the aircraft was not running or flying.
I did get a rocket from the CAA once over incomplete paper work, although I new the aircraft was safe, needless to say back up was not forthcoming.
Its not easy, when you have a couple of young children, and a mortgage, to turn round and say, that's not going out until its ready, but there are times when you have no option.
The down side is that stress can have a long term effect.
My first manager was a great guy, who stated, "my job is to keep the directors off you backs"
My subsequent managers could not take this pressure, and passed it straight on, I have lost count of the number of times I have faced a red faced guy having hysterics because an aircraft was not out running on the totally unrealistic day it was planned to be.
We used to trick one guy in particular by pushing the aircraft out of the hangar,(more so on a nice day), and carrying on working out side, it used to take him half a day to realize that the aircraft was not running or flying.
I did get a rocket from the CAA once over incomplete paper work, although I new the aircraft was safe, needless to say back up was not forthcoming.
Its not easy, when you have a couple of young children, and a mortgage, to turn round and say, that's not going out until its ready, but there are times when you have no option.
The down side is that stress can have a long term effect.
The Accident Report on the Louisiana National Guard Blackhawk Crash near Destin has been obtained by a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request.
The National Guard Pilots were harshly described as being dismissive of weather reports by the Boat Crews who were to pick up the Marine Corps Spec Ops team after they Rapelled/Fast Roped/Helicast into the Gulf of Mexico.
The two pilots were told of deteriorating weather offshore due to fog and log ceilings but proceeded to carry on despite the weather being far below the Mission's Briefed Weather Minimums.
The Report also reports a lack of action by Senior Staff in charge of the Training Exercise.
What was not discussed in the news article is several other aircraft Returned to Base upon realizing the weather was below Briefed Minimums.
This is not just a problem in the UK VIP Industry.
Report: Pilots in deadly Black Hawk crash disobeyed orders
The National Guard Pilots were harshly described as being dismissive of weather reports by the Boat Crews who were to pick up the Marine Corps Spec Ops team after they Rapelled/Fast Roped/Helicast into the Gulf of Mexico.
The two pilots were told of deteriorating weather offshore due to fog and log ceilings but proceeded to carry on despite the weather being far below the Mission's Briefed Weather Minimums.
The Report also reports a lack of action by Senior Staff in charge of the Training Exercise.
What was not discussed in the news article is several other aircraft Returned to Base upon realizing the weather was below Briefed Minimums.
This is not just a problem in the UK VIP Industry.
Report: Pilots in deadly Black Hawk crash disobeyed orders
Lead item on BBC Look East at 1830 today 13th Jan showed a movie clip taken by employees from Lord Ballyedmond's house as the helo lifted clearly showing the thickness of the fog and recording the disbelieving comments of those nearby that anyone was going flying in such weather.
BBC iPlayer - Look East - East - 13/01/2016
Don't think this link will remain on the BBC site past tomorrow evening and I don't know how to download the clip.
BBC iPlayer - Look East - East - 13/01/2016
Don't think this link will remain on the BBC site past tomorrow evening and I don't know how to download the clip.
We cannot view it from outside the UK.
If it is on Youtube we can.
If it is on Youtube we can.