AW139 Cat. "A" and Cat. "B" discussion
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AW139 Cat. "A" and Cat. "B" discussion
If an operator is NOT using cat A or B procedures as prescribed by the Agusta manufacturer during take off and landing then where are OTHER approved procedures written?
Any of you "pros" out there care to chime in?
Any of you "pros" out there care to chime in?
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In the Operations Manual for the operator concerned. You can design any procedures you like based on the performance data and graphs produced by the manufacturer. Where they fit in the spectrum of Performance Classes set out in the operations legislation is another matter.
Last edited by puntosaurus; 13th Feb 2014 at 21:50.
Correct Saurus, except those maneuvers in the RFM were "made up" by test pilots and subject to certification by whichever authority has an approved RFM (FAA, EASA, TC, ANAC), make up your own maneuver and you are liable for whatever goes wrong when you perform it.
DAPT, those maneuvers you mention are introductive to CatA training and mostly demonstrative in nature, as a matter of fact they are performed in the first two sorties and they are not carried over.
DAPT, those maneuvers you mention are introductive to CatA training and mostly demonstrative in nature, as a matter of fact they are performed in the first two sorties and they are not carried over.
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Operations Manuals are developed by the operators and approved by the appropriate Aviation Authority that oversees their operations. They are called Operational Approvals as opposed to Certification Approvals that are granted to manufacturers. I believe puntosaurus is correct.
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highest level of safety to take off and land AW 139
Professional Pilots,
What I want to know exactly is:
What type of take-off/landing affords the HIGHEST level of safety during take off and landing of the AW 139 helicopter? IF it is not the cat. "A" or "B", then what is it and where are the APPROVED procedures written? APPROVED is defined as: the manufacturer AND the governing aviation authority in which part of the globe it is operated in.
Thanks for your professional answers.......
What I want to know exactly is:
What type of take-off/landing affords the HIGHEST level of safety during take off and landing of the AW 139 helicopter? IF it is not the cat. "A" or "B", then what is it and where are the APPROVED procedures written? APPROVED is defined as: the manufacturer AND the governing aviation authority in which part of the globe it is operated in.
Thanks for your professional answers.......
Cat A, RFM Supplement 12. Supplement 50 applies if you are operating above 6400Kg gross weight.
Cat A procedures are the ones with built in safety, without getting into the details.
Cat A procedures are the ones with built in safety, without getting into the details.
Cat A Vs Cat B
It is my understanding that:
Cat A procedures, if followed, guarantee for either continued safe flight or a safe landing at the point of takeoff or landing should the critical engine fail. This takes into account aircraft performance and the size and elevation the helipad.
Cat B procedures provide for minimum exposure to critical flight regimes during takeoff and landing. This also includes planning for a safe landing area in the mediate vicinity of the takeoff/landing spot should a loss of power be experienced. This procedure typically pertains to single engine machines but can be applicable to multi-engine aircraft that do not have the ability for continued flight after sustaining a loss of one engine. i.e. S-76A operating in Denver, CO
Cat A procedures, if followed, guarantee for either continued safe flight or a safe landing at the point of takeoff or landing should the critical engine fail. This takes into account aircraft performance and the size and elevation the helipad.
Cat B procedures provide for minimum exposure to critical flight regimes during takeoff and landing. This also includes planning for a safe landing area in the mediate vicinity of the takeoff/landing spot should a loss of power be experienced. This procedure typically pertains to single engine machines but can be applicable to multi-engine aircraft that do not have the ability for continued flight after sustaining a loss of one engine. i.e. S-76A operating in Denver, CO
Same is valid for the FAA.
‘Category A with respect to helicopters’ means a multi-engined helicopter designed with engine and system isolation features specified in the applicable
airworthiness codes and capable of operations using take-off and landing data
scheduled under a critical engine failure concept that assures adequate designated surface area and adequate performance capability for continued safe flight or safe rejected take-off in the event of engine failure.
‘Category B with respect to helicopters’ means a single-engined or multi-engined
helicopter that does not meet Category A standards.
Category B helicopters have no guaranteed capability to continue safe flight in the event of an engine failure, and unscheduled landing is assumed.
https://easa.europa.eu/agency-measur...Regulation.pdf
airworthiness codes and capable of operations using take-off and landing data
scheduled under a critical engine failure concept that assures adequate designated surface area and adequate performance capability for continued safe flight or safe rejected take-off in the event of engine failure.
‘Category B with respect to helicopters’ means a single-engined or multi-engined
helicopter that does not meet Category A standards.
Category B helicopters have no guaranteed capability to continue safe flight in the event of an engine failure, and unscheduled landing is assumed.
https://easa.europa.eu/agency-measur...Regulation.pdf
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Tottigol is 100% correct in his quoted definitions of Cat A and B. Where some people get confused is when they mix Cat and Class.
Cat A as tottigol points out, covers other aspects of certification ( dual hyd, fuel systems, etc.) as well as performance, whereas CLASS 1 is performance only. Cat A performance and Class 1 are basically the same for arguments sake.
Now Cat B and Class 2 are two different things. Class 2 definitely does not include single engine helicopters (class3) and has a defined performance definition.
When people are discussing performance it is far more accurate to use the Class definition than the Cat
Cat A as tottigol points out, covers other aspects of certification ( dual hyd, fuel systems, etc.) as well as performance, whereas CLASS 1 is performance only. Cat A performance and Class 1 are basically the same for arguments sake.
Now Cat B and Class 2 are two different things. Class 2 definitely does not include single engine helicopters (class3) and has a defined performance definition.
When people are discussing performance it is far more accurate to use the Class definition than the Cat
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Cat A vs Class 1
Cat A and Cat B are defined in certification rules.
Class 1, 2 and 3 are defined in operational rules.
Class 1 and Class 2 performance require the helicopter to be certified in Cat A (and therefore to fulfil the Cat A engine isolation requirements).
Cat A and Class 1 performance requirements are very similar, with few discrepancies such as the vertical distance to clear obstacles (15ft in Cat A, 35ft in Class 1).
Class 1, 2 and 3 are defined in operational rules.
Class 1 and Class 2 performance require the helicopter to be certified in Cat A (and therefore to fulfil the Cat A engine isolation requirements).
Cat A and Class 1 performance requirements are very similar, with few discrepancies such as the vertical distance to clear obstacles (15ft in Cat A, 35ft in Class 1).
Thanks to all.....
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Keep it alive
Ok, In the guise of trying to keep this alive as requested I offer the following:
When discussing the Cat A procedures and what is allowed/not can someone clarify the reason why there are performance charts in Supp 12 that have no corresponding equal in Supp 50?
For weights below 6400kg Supp 12 contains WAT Chart(s) and CTO OEI chart for Heliports - Ground Level/Elevated - Vertical Procedure
However, In Supp 50 there are no corresponding charts for - VERTICAL Procedure Elevated Helideck. Instead you have ones for Confined Area, Off Shore and Clear Area/Cat B.
The CTO OEI chart in Supp 12 could be easily extrapolated from as the lines for the weights are nice even 400kg separations but I suppose its frowned upon if we were to no?
There are no limitations against this procedure. So, how does one figure the CTO distance if you are to depart from a elevated deck at Sea Level that is not an Off Shore rig?
When discussing the Cat A procedures and what is allowed/not can someone clarify the reason why there are performance charts in Supp 12 that have no corresponding equal in Supp 50?
For weights below 6400kg Supp 12 contains WAT Chart(s) and CTO OEI chart for Heliports - Ground Level/Elevated - Vertical Procedure
However, In Supp 50 there are no corresponding charts for - VERTICAL Procedure Elevated Helideck. Instead you have ones for Confined Area, Off Shore and Clear Area/Cat B.
The CTO OEI chart in Supp 12 could be easily extrapolated from as the lines for the weights are nice even 400kg separations but I suppose its frowned upon if we were to no?
There are no limitations against this procedure. So, how does one figure the CTO distance if you are to depart from a elevated deck at Sea Level that is not an Off Shore rig?
Correct B73, the only CatA profiles that are certificated above 6400 Kg are the Offshore Helideck, the Confined Area and the Clear Area.
Like I said before there should not be any interpretation of the RFM, if it can be done it is published in there, if it isn't then you are acting as a test pilot.
Like I said before there should not be any interpretation of the RFM, if it can be done it is published in there, if it isn't then you are acting as a test pilot.
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Yes Bravo thanks for clarifying it. So you can take off from a confined area at up to 6800 but not a wide open heliport with no obstructions around it. Yeah sure makes sense to me.
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Confined Area is just the name of the procedure that provides a steep takeoff-landing profile and not the place where you want to take off from. You could use it from any area you like, providing it is at least 20x20 m.
