Cost sharing

[GMavrick]

Hi guys,


Frist post so be nice I've read a lot on here about cost sharing but need some info off you kind peope...

If I have my PPL and type rated on a R44 if you take up some friends on a self fly hire rate of £340 p/h and they give me half toward the cost of the flight I know that's legal and most people do .

But If I have a friend who has an events company and has say 40 guest and as part of the event offered 10 minuet helicopter flights for £50 per person (keep it simple)

60 minuets = 6 flights, minimum of 2 people per flight = £600 for the events company.

If I was to hire a R44 for 2 hours (est 30 min travel time each way) @ £340 p/h = £680 and did these 10 minuet fights.

And if personally paid for 1 hour of that flight which leaves £340 and that was paid to myself from the events company to cover the helicopter costs Does that count as cost sharing? or is that operating as a commercial pilot? due to members of the public are paying for a service?


Thanks guys, all advice useful.

[206Fan]

GMavrick,

Your first suggestion is fine I believe. If your friends are happy chipping in towards the cost of the flight then happy days!

Your second suggestion is a no go as this requires a Commercial Pilot and a Company who holds an Air Operator Certificate (AOC) to carry out the Commercial Operations!

[Hughes500]

Basically cost sharing is that, but you cant advertise it except within the confines of a flying club.
Also cost sharing means a share so if 4 people in R44 you have to pay 25% if only one you have to pay 50%

[GMavrick]

Thanks I was just thinking of ways to try and get Cheaper hours to build up to CPL ect.


with regards to normal cost sharing if you self hire a R44 are you allowed to fly from the airfield, land (Where you have permission) and then take up 3 friends and they pay there share cash to you is that allowed?
or have they got to come to the airfield pay their share to the flying school then return them to the airfield and that a flight done.


if that's allowed then I could just post on facebook "I have my PPL blah, blah, Need to build up my hours Blah,Blah Can cost share 3 people want to come for a flight £50 each. organise time an place, I hire 44 leave airfield, land pick up friends, fly them round, land and then return to the airfield.


I'm not trying to find loophole...Honnest

[Bravo73]

Originally Posted by GMavrick

if that's allowed then I could just post on facebook "I have my PPL blah, blah, Need to build up my hours Blah,Blah Can cost share 3 people want to come for a flight £50 each. organise time an place, I hire 44 leave airfield, land pick up friends, fly them round, land and then return to the airfield.

Nope, that's not allowed because the advertising isn't 'within the confines of a flying club'.

Originally Posted by GMavrick

I'm not trying to find loophole...Honnest

Don't worry, you're not the first. The cheapest way to hour build, believe it or not, is probably to buy a cheap* R22, fly the hours that you require and then sell it on again. That does, however, come with other responsibilities and risks though.






* 'Cheap' is a relative term. There isn't really anything cheap in aviation, especially when you're dealing with helicopters.

[Pittsextra]

Why not charge them £100 for a lunch? You all are good friends and at some point go for a ride in a helicopter?

[GMavrick]

Bravo73


What if I was to advertise on a Flying club website/Facebook page and I just happened to share the address/page with people who are not members of club.


I do like the sound of buying my own R22 and then maybe letting my flying school use it for free storage in return (maybe some sort of deal) but then I would need:
£80 - 110K to buy it
insurance
Hangar
Maintenance costs
Fuel


I would keep it to hour build all the way up to FI then I would have my own helicopter to teach or rent out so seems a waste to sell it on.


I do know that if a company was to buy a Aircraft and if someone was employed by that company, if they are employed to be the company Cleaner and are paid for being the company's cleaner if they happen to have a PPL they can fly "for and be paid by the company" for flying.

[Bravo73]

Originally Posted by Pittsextra

Why not charge them £100 for a lunch? You all are good friends and at some point go for a ride in a helicopter?

Because, under the ANO, that would be illegal.

And, he has already stated that he isn't looking for a loophole.

[chopjock]

Start up a flying club and charge membership fees.
You can then advertise within the club for the flying.

[MikeNYC]

In the USA, this would also not fly because you lack a "common purpose" for the flight with each of the paying passengers. Would you happen to do 10 flights of 10mins each, without the passengers? You're not sharing the common purpose of getting to a football game, or visiting friends. A sightseeing flight might fly...but not 10x in a row.

[Pittsextra]

Because, under the ANO, that would be illegal.

And, he has already stated that he isn't looking for a loophole

??? why is having a dinner with some friends and then going for a flight afterwards illegal? and what is the loophole?

So I meet my mother, father and girlfriend.... they buy me lunch, maybe we even stay over in a hotel...at some point we go flying... all illegal?

Edited to add : common purpose might include enjoying the view and as I didn't own a 10 seat aircraft we had to make a few flights. Seriously you've never taken your mates for a short flight???

[Bravo73]

Originally Posted by Pittsextra

??? why is having a dinner with some friends and then going for a flight afterwards illegal? and what is the loophole?

So I meet my mother, father and girlfriend.... they buy me lunch, maybe we even stay over in a hotel...at some point we go flying... all illegal?

Edited to add : common purpose might include enjoying the view and as I didn't own a 10 seat aircraft we had to make a few flights. Seriously you've never taken your mates for a short flight???

I'm not going to bother arguing with you.

You really know a thread is going somewhere when Pittsextra and chopjock get involved.

[Pittsextra]

still waiting for the loophole and how the flight is illegal.

[GMavrick]

I think the loophole is like this


"want some lunch? only cost you £100 and afterwards if you want I just happen to have a helicopter with me if you want to come for a flight? but its not related to a £100 lunch at all"


I tried to post ealyier and it said "you will have to wait to see your post" and this post appeared straight away what that about?

[Pittsextra]

Oh in which case if it isn't related to the lunch at all then its legal.

I guess the point is this. If you want to have a big advert suggesting you can pay £X for a 10min flight then that is not legal. However firstly its not the pilot advertising the flights is it - its a 3rd party corporate entity and thus remote from the pilot.

Look at it another way.. what about a wealthy guy in the city with an Augusta 109... he trades equities lets say... and his clients (i.e. people he trades for) give him this business because they like to go shooting/horse racing/watching Formula 1/J Palmer's driving days... They like going shooting with him because he has said 109 and its a jolly good fun...

[GMavrick]

Another way to look at is.


As you said the events company are advertising the flights not me, all I do is rent a helicopter, and my friend says "hey can you take me & some of friends for some short 10 minuet flights at blah blah where he happens to be holding an event and he cost shares the helicopter with me...?

[206Fan]

Augusta 109

You just stung my eyes Pitt!

GMav,

If costs are an issue, why not just hire out the R22?

[GMavrick]

Yes an R22 is good to hire, but if I wanted to Cost Share with friends you more likely to have a group of friends/people who would go for flight rather than just one person on their own.

[Pittsextra]

sorry typo.. although at least its lightened the mood :-)

They went to watch some golf at Augusta in an Agusta...

[Bravo73]

Originally Posted by GMavrick

Bravo73


What if I was to advertise on a Flying club website/Facebook page and I just happened to share the address/page with people who are not members of club.

Nope, all the participants have to be members of the Flying Club (for starters). Here's the paragraph out of the ANO (Air Navigation Order):

• (c) no information has been published or advertised before the commencement of the flight other than, in the case of an aircraft operated by a flying club, advertising wholly within the premises of such a flying club in which case all the persons carried on such a flight who are aged 18 years or over must be members of that flying club; and

Originally Posted by GMavrick

I do like the sound of buying my own R22 and then maybe letting my flying school use it for free storage in return (maybe some sort of deal) but then I would need:
£80 - 110K to buy it
insurance
Hangar
Maintenance costs
Fuel


I would keep it to hour build all the way up to FI then I would have my own helicopter to teach or rent out so seems a waste to sell it on.

Yep, like I said: "other responsibilities and risks". Although you could probably find an R22 with sufficient hours left for £50-70k.

Originally Posted by GMavrick

I do know that if a company was to buy a Aircraft and if someone was employed by that company, if they are employed to be the company Cleaner and are paid for being the company's cleaner if they happen to have a PPL they can fly "for and be paid by the company" for flying.

You're confusing the issue slightly. In that scenario, the aircraft is a private aircraft. The same company would get into a lot of bother if they tried charging passengers for flights.