chip light
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chip light
Hello gents
Few days ago I was cruising along and the turbine chip warning light came on, so I landed the helicopter did a visual inspection and since everything looked normal from the outside (oil level, oil leak etc. etc) pick up hovered for about 10 min.. all gages green, Took off and headed back to base.
Maintenance personel took the sensor off and turns out it did have some metallic dust in the sensor. Now we will have to fly the ship normally and if the light comes on again it will be another story.
I have never experienced this before. Is this common? can it happen once in a while? Or once the metallic dust starts appearing in the sensor the turbine engine is doomed... The engine has about 300 hrs.
Few days ago I was cruising along and the turbine chip warning light came on, so I landed the helicopter did a visual inspection and since everything looked normal from the outside (oil level, oil leak etc. etc) pick up hovered for about 10 min.. all gages green, Took off and headed back to base.
Maintenance personel took the sensor off and turns out it did have some metallic dust in the sensor. Now we will have to fly the ship normally and if the light comes on again it will be another story.
I have never experienced this before. Is this common? can it happen once in a while? Or once the metallic dust starts appearing in the sensor the turbine engine is doomed... The engine has about 300 hrs.
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I had one a week or so ago. Had crew handle comms, landed immediately and called for engineering support once on the ground safely.
We (engineering) pulled the chip plugs, found 'carbon' or nothing significant. Flush oil, clean chip plug(s), screen and change filter. Hover checks 15 mins and ops check satis - on our way. We also reviewed most recent SOAP sample, collected residue with a bit of sticky tape and white paper for trending and subsequently increased SOAP interval info. Carbon or fine powder like substance can be found on chip plugs, sometimes following some sort of engine work. Many Allisons and LTS engines had/have fuzz burners for that reason.
Checking chip plugs to make sure they don't look like a Christmas tree would be the first choice after landing though, after which you should automatically consider maintenance intervention or advice before further flight.
Now you're safely on the ground, you may want to consider the above for the future. I wasn't that remote but even in the Amazon (and I've flown down there - triple canopy etc), I would be a little more cautious than just checking oil levels before departure.
You're next landing may have been a little less controlled with only the buzzards to identify your entry point.
My 2c worth.
We (engineering) pulled the chip plugs, found 'carbon' or nothing significant. Flush oil, clean chip plug(s), screen and change filter. Hover checks 15 mins and ops check satis - on our way. We also reviewed most recent SOAP sample, collected residue with a bit of sticky tape and white paper for trending and subsequently increased SOAP interval info. Carbon or fine powder like substance can be found on chip plugs, sometimes following some sort of engine work. Many Allisons and LTS engines had/have fuzz burners for that reason.
Checking chip plugs to make sure they don't look like a Christmas tree would be the first choice after landing though, after which you should automatically consider maintenance intervention or advice before further flight.
Now you're safely on the ground, you may want to consider the above for the future. I wasn't that remote but even in the Amazon (and I've flown down there - triple canopy etc), I would be a little more cautious than just checking oil levels before departure.
You're next landing may have been a little less controlled with only the buzzards to identify your entry point.My 2c worth.
Hi Soave_Pilot,
depending of the engine(s) in your helicopter and depending on the flighthours you will do - an engine chip is a more or less common occurence.
Some have chip- or fuzzburners fitted, so before you go for an outside or emergencylanding, you can burn of the stuff on the magplug - and if it isnīt staying on or comes on a second and third time, you continue the flight.
If it stays on, it depends on further values, if you want to put it into ground idle and back to power for landing - or shut down the engine (talking about twins here).
Still, the magplugs are fitted, to tell you, that something is wrong with your engine (or gearbox).
Most times it will be parts from manufacturing or overhauling, that come loose after a while and are no big deal - but sometimes there are bearings and other parts in the engine, which start to break apart.
So you have to consider that every time you get an indication.
Itīs good to know, where the magplugs are, so that you can take a look at them - saves the engineers some time. Best have a talk to them, I think they will show you how, and what to think about (keeping the stuff on the magplug for further examination).
Greetings Flying Bull
(MagPlug indications with me around every 800 to 1.000 hrs)
depending of the engine(s) in your helicopter and depending on the flighthours you will do - an engine chip is a more or less common occurence.
Some have chip- or fuzzburners fitted, so before you go for an outside or emergencylanding, you can burn of the stuff on the magplug - and if it isnīt staying on or comes on a second and third time, you continue the flight.
If it stays on, it depends on further values, if you want to put it into ground idle and back to power for landing - or shut down the engine (talking about twins here).
Still, the magplugs are fitted, to tell you, that something is wrong with your engine (or gearbox).
Most times it will be parts from manufacturing or overhauling, that come loose after a while and are no big deal - but sometimes there are bearings and other parts in the engine, which start to break apart.
So you have to consider that every time you get an indication.
Itīs good to know, where the magplugs are, so that you can take a look at them - saves the engineers some time. Best have a talk to them, I think they will show you how, and what to think about (keeping the stuff on the magplug for further examination).
Greetings Flying Bull
(MagPlug indications with me around every 800 to 1.000 hrs)
Something to consider: A pilot at another company I worked at got a chip light (I believe it was a transmission light in a 206 or 206L) and decided to save the company some money by flying it home rather than making an outlanding with all the associated "drama". Result was a 6-digit amount of damage to the machine that could have probably been avoided if the machine had been landed and shut down ASAP.
It really depends on the machine and the engine type.
It really depends on the machine and the engine type.
Hate to say it but in the good old daze we carried the necessary tools, lock wire ect and were taught how to check a chip plug, clean it, save any chips for the engineers, do a runup for 10 minutes and if all was well to return to base.
This of course if it was just a small shaving or suchlike. If it was a large chunk or had a part number on it there you stayed.
Many moons ago but when the alternative was a night in the bush at -40........
As an aside in those times we all had the engine course and helped the engineers with maint.
It was company SOP and I would not think of doing it today!
In those days it was normal to buzz off over the horizon for a short contract of a week without an engineer winter or summer.
Bell 206s, As350, 355.
We hardly went anywhere overnight with the 205 without "adult supervision" happened sometimes but only for a day or two.
This of course if it was just a small shaving or suchlike. If it was a large chunk or had a part number on it there you stayed.
Many moons ago but when the alternative was a night in the bush at -40........
As an aside in those times we all had the engine course and helped the engineers with maint.
It was company SOP and I would not think of doing it today!
In those days it was normal to buzz off over the horizon for a short contract of a week without an engineer winter or summer.
Bell 206s, As350, 355.
We hardly went anywhere overnight with the 205 without "adult supervision" happened sometimes but only for a day or two.
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What you need to do for a chip light depends entirely on the RFM. There should be a checklist that spells out what to do for any caution light, and you should follow that to the letter. The relevant government agency will expect it, and may take action if you don't. There may also be more detailed instructions in your Operations Manual. If you haven't already read these, then you're sorely negligent. You need to know the actions to be taken before the light comes on.
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depending of the engine(s) in your helicopter and depending on the flighthours you will do - an engine chip is a more or less common occurence.
What you need to do for a chip light depends entirely on the RFM
"Land as soon as possible" normally means what it says on the tin. So you did that, at which point the helicopter is unserviceable - after all, you landed because there was an indication of a defect. You can only take off again ("legally", I mean) either if the appropriate maintenance actions for the chip light are carried out and signed off by a licensed engineer, or if the MEL allows you to depart with the unserviceability - which in this case I very much doubt.
So by taking off again, you were flying an aircraft you knew to be unserviceable, its Certificate of Airworthiness temporarily invalid, almost certainly along with its insurance.
I appreciate you are operating in remote areas (presuming your profile is correct) but at the very least you should know what you are risking in terms of your personal liability / career. Maybe your company was quite happy that you got the bird back at your own risk, but if things had gone wrong I doubt they would have been so supportive.
You can't tell what is going on inside an engine just by looking from the outside and checking the oil level.
So by taking off again, you were flying an aircraft you knew to be unserviceable, its Certificate of Airworthiness temporarily invalid, almost certainly along with its insurance.
I appreciate you are operating in remote areas (presuming your profile is correct) but at the very least you should know what you are risking in terms of your personal liability / career. Maybe your company was quite happy that you got the bird back at your own risk, but if things had gone wrong I doubt they would have been so supportive.
You can't tell what is going on inside an engine just by looking from the outside and checking the oil level.
Avoid imitations
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Chip lights may be spurious, too. The problem comes because you don't know if they're calling "wolf" yet again.
I once diverted three times on one trip due to spurious engine chip warnings. The "fuzz-burn" system didn't make it go away so the engine had to be shut down. I had it checked out each time and it was finally sourced to a faulty plug/harness joint shorting out.
OTH. I've also had one engine chip light that wasn't spurious. The engine mag plug was full of metal flakes.
I've also flown one type of aircraft which had mag plugs but no cockpit warning system. The plugs were pulled by the maintenance crew after so many hours and changed for a new set; then the old plugs were looked at under a microscope by specialists. One morning we landed after hovering at 10,000 feet for most of the night over a city. The main gearbox mag plug had a chunk of metal on it that was too big to come out of the aperture. It was part of a gearwheel and a new main rotor gearbox was needed.
I once diverted three times on one trip due to spurious engine chip warnings. The "fuzz-burn" system didn't make it go away so the engine had to be shut down. I had it checked out each time and it was finally sourced to a faulty plug/harness joint shorting out.
OTH. I've also had one engine chip light that wasn't spurious. The engine mag plug was full of metal flakes.
I've also flown one type of aircraft which had mag plugs but no cockpit warning system. The plugs were pulled by the maintenance crew after so many hours and changed for a new set; then the old plugs were looked at under a microscope by specialists. One morning we landed after hovering at 10,000 feet for most of the night over a city. The main gearbox mag plug had a chunk of metal on it that was too big to come out of the aperture. It was part of a gearwheel and a new main rotor gearbox was needed.
Helicomparator
Not necessarily. Here in the US a private pilot can pull a chip detector and determine it is just fuzz.
Even on an air carrier certificate, pilots can be trained and authorized to do it. All my pilots are trained ass such---all perfectly legal.
You can only take off again ("legally", I mean) either if the appropriate maintenance actions for the chip light are carried out and signed off by a licensed engineer, or if the MEL allows you to depart with the unserviceability - which in this case I very much doubt.
Even on an air carrier certificate, pilots can be trained and authorized to do it. All my pilots are trained ass such---all perfectly legal.
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I'm also trained and legal to check the chip plugs. But they have to be checked, as a minimum, and the fuzz removed, with the light extinguished, before it's legal to take off again. You can't take off with a caution light illuminated. Sometimes it takes awhile to find the right chip plug, find the metal, and get the light to go out. Sometimes it's just carbon, and there are no ferrous particles to be found. Sometimes it's just a hair across the plug, and these are common after an engine rebuild. I once checked the transmission chip detector on a 206 and found a piece that had either a 6 or a 9 on it, depending on which way you looked at it. I didn't crank that one back up, but maintenance came out and flew it to the beach for a transmission change. 
Nasty night over very cold saltwater with huge waves....rain...sleet...Combining Gearbox Chip Light illuminated just as we entered the cruise. I reached out and rotated the segment caution light so it went out.
Coey asked what good that would do.....to be told I had no intention of looking at the thing for almost three hours all the way back to the Beach.
Sometimes.....you rolls the Dice and Takes your chances.
It was fuzz and not a problem.
Coey asked what good that would do.....to be told I had no intention of looking at the thing for almost three hours all the way back to the Beach.
Sometimes.....you rolls the Dice and Takes your chances.
It was fuzz and not a problem.
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Mag plugs and chip detectors
Some engines will have 1 or more electrically connected chip detectors that when triggered will turn on a light in the cockpit warning of a potential problem, others have a magnetic plug that is not connected to anything.
These mag plugs need to be removed and inspected at specified intervals, normally at the Daily Inspection, but occasionally at scheduled checks dependant on engine make/model.
An indication of a chip is generally part of fair wear and tear, and the detectors are deliberately made as sensetive as possible to catch miniscule "hairs" and fuzz that come off bits of metal that run against each other under the harsh conditions of normal operation.
Occasionally, there will be a piece that comes off a bearing or a gear that is not a part of normal wear and those are the "christmas trees" due to the shape that small bits sometimes make and the "bits with a part number" that are pucker inducing sized.
Procedures are in place to control actions post chip event, and vary from "clean it and carry on" to "SOAP analysis" and "draining and replacement of oil with test flight/hover" to determine following actions.
At the end of the day, the RFM is your first Directive, and thereafter, whatever your Boss has decided in the SOP's.
These mag plugs need to be removed and inspected at specified intervals, normally at the Daily Inspection, but occasionally at scheduled checks dependant on engine make/model.
An indication of a chip is generally part of fair wear and tear, and the detectors are deliberately made as sensetive as possible to catch miniscule "hairs" and fuzz that come off bits of metal that run against each other under the harsh conditions of normal operation.
Occasionally, there will be a piece that comes off a bearing or a gear that is not a part of normal wear and those are the "christmas trees" due to the shape that small bits sometimes make and the "bits with a part number" that are pucker inducing sized.
Procedures are in place to control actions post chip event, and vary from "clean it and carry on" to "SOAP analysis" and "draining and replacement of oil with test flight/hover" to determine following actions.
At the end of the day, the RFM is your first Directive, and thereafter, whatever your Boss has decided in the SOP's.
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Strange chip light story -
OH-58 would have a transmission chip light flicker on start, and then go away.
Machine shut down and chip checked - clearn. Happened three times. Mechanic checking finally decided that because there was a larger than normal drop of oil that came out when detector was pulled each time, that the chip detector itself should be changed.
Half an hour later presented me with chip detector with staple on the element - no one could figure out how staple got into the system, but it was sticking up and would tip against the housing as oil started to flow and then somehow come away. It was sticking up enough that it caused the small leak with the detector was removed.
OH-58 would have a transmission chip light flicker on start, and then go away.
Machine shut down and chip checked - clearn. Happened three times. Mechanic checking finally decided that because there was a larger than normal drop of oil that came out when detector was pulled each time, that the chip detector itself should be changed.
Half an hour later presented me with chip detector with staple on the element - no one could figure out how staple got into the system, but it was sticking up and would tip against the housing as oil started to flow and then somehow come away. It was sticking up enough that it caused the small leak with the detector was removed.
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I appreciate you are operating in remote areas (presuming your profile is correct) but at the very least you should know what you are risking in terms of your personal liability / career. Maybe your company was quite happy that you got the bird back at your own risk, but if things had gone wrong I doubt they would have been so supportive.
. If we stayed there we would have the SAR after us on sunrise. And the CEO was with me.Satellite phone was dead... few hours to sunset...
I think it was a good decision.
If I were flying over dense populated I probably wouldn't take off unless I talked to maintenance personel.
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Bell 205 Engine Chip
As has been variously said above, chip warnings are more likely following a gearbox change or, perhaps, an engine change. In the Huey/Bell 205, I had various gearbox chip warnings but never an engine chip light until this occasion.
I was passing about 800' out of an airfield in Oman in a Bell 205. An engine chip light appeared and it was a no-brainer that I should to return to base - all of 2 miles distant. However, half way through the turn - and now facing into wind and pointing at a very large, and empty dispersal area - the fire light came on. Air traffic were quick to point out that the helicopter was indeed "smoking heavily." I would have been too, had there been time to light a fag!
I entered autorotation, pulled a little pitch at about 200' to see how the engine was doing, but only got an increase of N1 and no increase in torque. That confirmed I was definitely going for an engine-off landing. The landing was fine and I did the fire drill amid an impressive amount of smoke, and emerged to be greeted by the fire crew who had responded several minutes before being called by ATC.
Examination of the engine showed that several first-stage power turbine blades had detached and further damaged the second-stage blades. The out-of-balance power turbine had then torn loose the oil feed to a bearing, thus causing the smoke.
That convinced me of two things:
Better to be lucky than good; and
Treat chip warnings with respect.
I was passing about 800' out of an airfield in Oman in a Bell 205. An engine chip light appeared and it was a no-brainer that I should to return to base - all of 2 miles distant. However, half way through the turn - and now facing into wind and pointing at a very large, and empty dispersal area - the fire light came on. Air traffic were quick to point out that the helicopter was indeed "smoking heavily." I would have been too, had there been time to light a fag!
I entered autorotation, pulled a little pitch at about 200' to see how the engine was doing, but only got an increase of N1 and no increase in torque. That confirmed I was definitely going for an engine-off landing. The landing was fine and I did the fire drill amid an impressive amount of smoke, and emerged to be greeted by the fire crew who had responded several minutes before being called by ATC.
Examination of the engine showed that several first-stage power turbine blades had detached and further damaged the second-stage blades. The out-of-balance power turbine had then torn loose the oil feed to a bearing, thus causing the smoke.
That convinced me of two things:
Better to be lucky than good; and
Treat chip warnings with respect.
Nasty night over very cold saltwater with huge waves....rain...sleet...Combining Gearbox Chip Light illuminated just as we entered the cruise. I reached out and rotated the segment caution light so it went out.
Coey asked what good that would do.....to be told I had no intention of looking at the thing for almost three hours all the way back to the Beach.
Sometimes.....you rolls the Dice and Takes your chances.
It was fuzz and not a problem.
Coey asked what good that would do.....to be told I had no intention of looking at the thing for almost three hours all the way back to the Beach.
Sometimes.....you rolls the Dice and Takes your chances.
It was fuzz and not a problem.
Soave,
Well, if you had a real emergency after neglecting an engine chip, it would not matter if you had your boss with you or not. And SAR would be called out in any case to pull you potentially dead out of a river.
Now, DID you still had a light on when you took off? If that is the case you don't know enough about your helicopter and should read yourself up before bad luck catches up with you.
When that is said, pending on your helicopter type and it's manuals, it may allow you to do certain checks yourself, in order to get you back to base. Some helicopters have as mentioned above, mag-plugs that can easily determine if something seriously is happening or not to your engine.
As an example, part of my ALF check, I pull the 2 non-electrical engine-plugs on the AS350B3. These would be the first one's I would check after getting a light on the B3, plus the electrical plug on the fuel-control.
If we stayed there we would have the SAR after us on sunrise. And the CEO was with me.
Now, DID you still had a light on when you took off? If that is the case you don't know enough about your helicopter and should read yourself up before bad luck catches up with you.
When that is said, pending on your helicopter type and it's manuals, it may allow you to do certain checks yourself, in order to get you back to base. Some helicopters have as mentioned above, mag-plugs that can easily determine if something seriously is happening or not to your engine.
As an example, part of my ALF check, I pull the 2 non-electrical engine-plugs on the AS350B3. These would be the first one's I would check after getting a light on the B3, plus the electrical plug on the fuel-control.
How do you reckon it was Cavalier?
Perhaps our whole attitude in those days would be considered such today.
A Mustang Floater Jacket was seen as top shelf survival kit.
Helicopter SAR was up to three to four hours away....assuming they instantly departed upon your Ditching Call.....and could magically arrive directly overhead and winch you up.
We were using Decca for Area Nav....any idea how accurately you could determine your position with that kit in an emergency?
You had one Sarbe in your vest and no EPIRB.
There was a single manually deployed Raft with no Canopy.
Then to Ditch at Night in a Sea State well in excess of the Float's capability....in really cold water and an OAT right at freezing......for a Caution Light Only and no secondary indications?
The Check List, RFM, and Company SOP all agreed and said "Land As Soon As Possible".....not land Immediately.
Talk to me about being Cavalier again will you?
Did turning the Caption Light so it quite shining so brightly in the Dark change anything other than not having to look at the thing for a couple of hours when there was absolutely nothing else it could tell you once it came on and stayed on?
What is it you find so "Cavalier" to you.....do be specific please.
Perhaps our whole attitude in those days would be considered such today.
A Mustang Floater Jacket was seen as top shelf survival kit.
Helicopter SAR was up to three to four hours away....assuming they instantly departed upon your Ditching Call.....and could magically arrive directly overhead and winch you up.
We were using Decca for Area Nav....any idea how accurately you could determine your position with that kit in an emergency?
You had one Sarbe in your vest and no EPIRB.
There was a single manually deployed Raft with no Canopy.
Then to Ditch at Night in a Sea State well in excess of the Float's capability....in really cold water and an OAT right at freezing......for a Caution Light Only and no secondary indications?
The Check List, RFM, and Company SOP all agreed and said "Land As Soon As Possible".....not land Immediately.
Talk to me about being Cavalier again will you?
Did turning the Caption Light so it quite shining so brightly in the Dark change anything other than not having to look at the thing for a couple of hours when there was absolutely nothing else it could tell you once it came on and stayed on?
What is it you find so "Cavalier" to you.....do be specific please.
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Rolls Royce M250 chip lights
On the M250 engine, a couple of points to note.
1. the oil scavenge hole in the Number 1 bearing housing is very small, especially on the C20R engine. Number 1 bearing failure is normally only indicated by fine particles on the chip plug, as the bigger pieces are trapped in the housing. Don't ignore or take any chances with any tiny chips on the forward (top) plug.
2. Fine dust on the chip plugs normally indicates gear wear. What if the fine dust is caused by a gear shaft retaining ring, with the ring about to fail/cut through retaining wall?
3. There may be no debris on the plug because there is no magnetism. Chip plugs lose their strength over time. Every time you remove one, check it can pick up something like a washer sized item.
4. All Rolls Royce approved facilities can tell you the likely source of metal chips, if you have the debris analysed (or send it to them to have it analysed). Just let them know the AMS spec and which chip plug.
1. the oil scavenge hole in the Number 1 bearing housing is very small, especially on the C20R engine. Number 1 bearing failure is normally only indicated by fine particles on the chip plug, as the bigger pieces are trapped in the housing. Don't ignore or take any chances with any tiny chips on the forward (top) plug.
2. Fine dust on the chip plugs normally indicates gear wear. What if the fine dust is caused by a gear shaft retaining ring, with the ring about to fail/cut through retaining wall?
3. There may be no debris on the plug because there is no magnetism. Chip plugs lose their strength over time. Every time you remove one, check it can pick up something like a washer sized item.
4. All Rolls Royce approved facilities can tell you the likely source of metal chips, if you have the debris analysed (or send it to them to have it analysed). Just let them know the AMS spec and which chip plug.