Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub
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Fortyodd2,
Thanks for that,
It was directed at Sid because of the following quote.
"Sorry Pie, I don't see the part that says, 'the 95 litres of fuel drained was all that remained in the aircraft'."
Maybe I should have put it this way:
320 litres fuel on board
Flight time 1hour 37mins @ 185 litres/hr
320-280=40
Which is less than half of what the AIB drained from the aircraft!
Do you think there was more than 95 litres in the tanks?
Or would you prefer:
320-95=225 which on a flight of 1hour 37min would equate to a fuel burn of 150/hr
Apologies if my figures are way out here, I really am crap at maths, (I know, and spelling and grammar ) but I am sure somebody will jump on me if I am wrong!
Thanks for that,
It was directed at Sid because of the following quote.
"Sorry Pie, I don't see the part that says, 'the 95 litres of fuel drained was all that remained in the aircraft'."
Maybe I should have put it this way:
320 litres fuel on board
Flight time 1hour 37mins @ 185 litres/hr
320-280=40
Which is less than half of what the AIB drained from the aircraft!
Do you think there was more than 95 litres in the tanks?
Or would you prefer:
320-95=225 which on a flight of 1hour 37min would equate to a fuel burn of 150/hr
Apologies if my figures are way out here, I really am crap at maths, (I know, and spelling and grammar ) but I am sure somebody will jump on me if I am wrong!
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Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
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400kg, minus 200kg per hour is approx 325kg for a 1:37 flight. This leaves approx 75kg which is not too far away from 95 litres. Can someone tell me what is wrong with my maths?
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"Next, THERE WAS NOT 320 LITRES ON BOARD, THERE WAS 400KILOS, THAT'S OVER 400 LITRES"
Oops, what does that equate to then at a quoted fuel burn in the cruise of 185 to 195 litres/hour?
Oops, what does that equate to then at a quoted fuel burn in the cruise of 185 to 195 litres/hour?
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PC use 0.81 kg/l but remember the hover uses far more than cruise...not enough info released to know and presumably never will be unless ATC records are all available for the full flight. I'm not sure what the point is, anyway.
Never forget that there are huge political pressures involved - jobs in aircraft mfg are very political in the international sense so any injudicious aspersions would be costly unless it can be proven.
Never forget that there are huge political pressures involved - jobs in aircraft mfg are very political in the international sense so any injudicious aspersions would be costly unless it can be proven.
EC135 MMEL System 28
Although slightly different from the AFM which would take precedence,
the EC 135 Master Minimum Equipment List Specific Operating Procedures for the Fuel Transfer Pump (AFT and FWD) states "In case of loss of one fuel transfer pump, the fuel calculation for the flight must be performed under the assumption that the unusable fuel is 71 kg!"
All the best in 2014.
the EC 135 Master Minimum Equipment List Specific Operating Procedures for the Fuel Transfer Pump (AFT and FWD) states "In case of loss of one fuel transfer pump, the fuel calculation for the flight must be performed under the assumption that the unusable fuel is 71 kg!"
All the best in 2014.
"In normal flight when aft transfer pump warning illuminates, you would turn it off, yes?"
Not necessarily. In the cruise, yes. On scene, hover or low speed orbit, fwd or aft, no.
Not necessarily. In the cruise, yes. On scene, hover or low speed orbit, fwd or aft, no.
On scene, hover or low speed orbit, fwd or aft, no
The design of the fuel system seems very strange,where you have the engine supply tanks having a reduced quantity of fuel capacity,highest `draw/suck` rate,above the main tank,and failure of a pump(s) can leave one with a lot of unuseable fuel.Looks as though someone mixed the plans.The system should be designed to take fuel from the lowest point,and the engines should be able to` suck` from there.
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The design of the fuel system seems very strange
Perhaps better for mill spec, not so good for civ use. ?
Sycamore,
Which fuel system are you looking at??
Certainly not the 135 from that description. If you would like a picture or some notes to make it clearer, pm me or check out post #944 on page 48 of the EC135 thread.
Which fuel system are you looking at??
Certainly not the 135 from that description. If you would like a picture or some notes to make it clearer, pm me or check out post #944 on page 48 of the EC135 thread.
Last edited by Fortyodd2; 1st Jan 2014 at 18:05.
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Sid,
Do you think there was more than 95 litres remaining?
Do you think there was more than 95 litres remaining?
Don't forget, draining fuel from the fwd drain point with the ac in that nose down attitude, even if you drained all that would come out, that would still leave up to 59kgs in the main. So if you want me to put a figure on how much fuel was on the ac, I would say up to the 75kg drained + undrained 59 kgs = 134 kgs.
In conclusion, agreeing with jayteeto's figures, the amount of fuel on the ac at the time was as would be expected, especially using your burn rate.
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coincidence
Just a coincidence that the quantity of fuel drained is about the same as the unusable fuel quantity if the forward transfer pump is not replenishing the supply tanks at cruise attitude.
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Ornis
Just a coincidence that the quantity of fuel drained is about the same as the unusable fuel quantity if the forward transfer pump is not replenishing the supply tanks at cruise attitude.
Just a coincidence that the quantity of fuel drained is about the same as the unusable fuel quantity if the forward transfer pump is not replenishing the supply tanks at cruise attitude.
Ornis, it's unusable because the pump can't get at the fuel at that attitude. As the drain point is in the same location, how do you drain it? Are you saying they drained un-drainable fuel!
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Surely the AIB would drain all the fuel at the crash site.
Why would they take out and measure 95 litres, then transport a severely damaged aircraft all the way from Glasgow to Farnborough and only then see where the remaining fuel might be??
I think the AIB might just know to level the craft and measure fuel from all drain points.
Why would they take out and measure 95 litres, then transport a severely damaged aircraft all the way from Glasgow to Farnborough and only then see where the remaining fuel might be??
I think the AIB might just know to level the craft and measure fuel from all drain points.
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If you insist with this red herring ...
PieChaser
Surely the AIB would drain all the fuel at the crash site.
Why would they take out and measure 95 litres, then transport a severely damaged aircraft all the way from Glasgow to Farnborough and only then see where the remaining fuel might be??
I think the AIB might just know to level the craft and measure fuel from all drain points.
Surely the AIB would drain all the fuel at the crash site.
Why would they take out and measure 95 litres, then transport a severely damaged aircraft all the way from Glasgow to Farnborough and only then see where the remaining fuel might be??
I think the AIB might just know to level the craft and measure fuel from all drain points.
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Ornis
The engines may have stopped due to fuel exhaustion. Fuel exhaustion implies no fuel in the supply tanks.
How might that arise?
The engines may have stopped due to fuel exhaustion. Fuel exhaustion implies no fuel in the supply tanks.
How might that arise?
Both engines wouldn't have failed at the same time.
Fuel exhaustion means no fuel getting to the engines.
If you are trying to link this with the fuel indication incident, you've taken the wrong route, as hidden in the detail is the warning going off early, the fuel not actually being low and at no time were there any empty tanks.
Anyone else feel this is going round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and .....
Sid.....I would define "Fuel Exhaustion" as consuming all usable fuel.
"Fuel Starvation"....I would define as an Engine ceasing to function because of a lack of fuel flow despite there being ample usable fuel.
"Fuel Starvation"....I would define as an Engine ceasing to function because of a lack of fuel flow despite there being ample usable fuel.