Single Engine IFR
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Joined: Jan 2006
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From: EU
nigelh & stringfellow
The poster is in the US, not the UK: Your musings about the ills of UK society are off-topic and irrelevant. Please write to the Mail or meet on Jetblast if you want to rant.
nigelh
Flying IMC is a serious matter. I have met several pilots who venture SE unstabilsed to get on top or have done a bit of training in the soup. They are a danger to themselves and others. If a SE aircraft IS certified (some are) that is a different matter: it will have stabilisation and system redundancy.
An hour of hovering might actually do you good: you may remember how to spell it.
The poster is in the US, not the UK: Your musings about the ills of UK society are off-topic and irrelevant. Please write to the Mail or meet on Jetblast if you want to rant.
nigelh
Flying IMC is a serious matter. I have met several pilots who venture SE unstabilsed to get on top or have done a bit of training in the soup. They are a danger to themselves and others. If a SE aircraft IS certified (some are) that is a different matter: it will have stabilisation and system redundancy.
An hour of hovering might actually do you good: you may remember how to spell it.
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Flying IMC is a serious matter. I have met several pilots who venture SE unstabilsed to get on top or have done a bit of training in the soup. They are a danger to themselves and others. If a SE aircraft IS certified (some are) that is a different matter: it will have stabilisation and system redundancy.
More recently I flew a UK police helicopter, albeit a twin, that had no stabilisation or trim system. Thankfully it's been retired now and these days I fly approved SPIFR twins with good systems and 3/4 axis autopilots.
Illegal IMC? Yes, it certainly still happens. I had a close shave under the London TMA when an unknown contact (squawking mode A only) was notified to me by ATC, who were providing me with a radar service. As it had no Mode C and was manoeuvring I (wrongly) assumed it was flying in VMC at low level. However, a few seconds later it appeared just underneath my aircraft, probably closer than 100 feet below, in solid IMC, at 90 degrees to my path. There would have been no time for avoiding action from either aircraft, it all happened in a flash. I had taken the option to transit at 2400 feet under IFR and a radar service because the cloudbase was not much above 1000 feet. The pilot was obviously not under a radar service because I was speaking to the only provider. If he had, he would have given the game away by declaring his altitude. I regret not filing an Airprox at the time because it was an R-44. I know the colour, if not the registration, and from which airfield it came.
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: UK
You are right Shy Torque, i knew the answer....
I do remember some photos in the past on the "views from the cocpit" thread with some singles ie EC130 on top of the fluffy white stuff...
Yes it can be done and only recently i heard a few people telling the private owner that asked me that they can show him how to get on the top and get down through a hole....what if there is no gap in the clouds
they didn't have an answer to that..it will be fine!!!
Story has it that a chap a few years ago did that from Liverpool to Cardiff and had to come back 100 miles to find a hole in the clouds and came down with very,very little fuel left onboard
Crazy to even think about it in R44, B206 etc with no proper instruments on board..
H-M
I do remember some photos in the past on the "views from the cocpit" thread with some singles ie EC130 on top of the fluffy white stuff...
Yes it can be done and only recently i heard a few people telling the private owner that asked me that they can show him how to get on the top and get down through a hole....what if there is no gap in the clouds
they didn't have an answer to that..it will be fine!!!Story has it that a chap a few years ago did that from Liverpool to Cardiff and had to come back 100 miles to find a hole in the clouds and came down with very,very little fuel left onboard
Crazy to even think about it in R44, B206 etc with no proper instruments on board..
H-M
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,413
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From: England & Scotland
Err....
VFR in UK - in sight of ground. When you run out of holes, I understood that to be IMC. I understand how this can be legal in a plank but I had not thought "up and over" possible in a heli
John
VFR in UK - in sight of ground. When you run out of holes, I understood that to be IMC. I understand how this can be legal in a plank but I had not thought "up and over" possible in a heli
John
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Visual Flight Rules, copied from CAP393:
Flight outside controlled airspace
28 (1) Subject to paragraph (6), an aircraft flying outside controlled airspace at or above flight
level 100 shall remain at least 1,500 metres horizontally and 1,000 feet vertically away
from cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 8 km.
(2) Subject to paragraphs (3), (4), (5) and (6), an aircraft flying outside controlled airspace
below flight level 100 shall remain at least 1,500 metres horizontally and 1,000 feet
vertically away from cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 5 km.
(3) Paragraph (2) shall not apply to an aircraft which:
(a) flies at or below 3,000 feet above mean sea level;
(b) remains clear of cloud with the surface in sight; and
(c) is in a flight visibility of at least 5 km.
(4) Paragraph (2) shall not apply to an aircraft which is not a helicopter and which:
(a) flies at or below 3,000 feet above mean sea level;
(b) flies at a speed which, according to its air speed indicator, is 140 knots or less;
(c) remains clear of cloud with the surface in sight; and
(d) is in a flight visibility of at least 1,500 metres.
(5) Paragraph (2) shall not apply to a helicopter which:
(a) flies at or below 3,000 feet above mean sea level;
(b) flies at a speed which, having regard to the visibility, is reasonable;
(c) remains clear of cloud with the surface in sight; and
(d) is in a flight visibility of at least 1,500 metres.
(6) Paragraphs (1) and (2) shall not apply to a helicopter which is air-taxiing or conducting
manoeuvres in accordance with rule 6(i).
28 (1) Subject to paragraph (6), an aircraft flying outside controlled airspace at or above flight
level 100 shall remain at least 1,500 metres horizontally and 1,000 feet vertically away
from cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 8 km.
(2) Subject to paragraphs (3), (4), (5) and (6), an aircraft flying outside controlled airspace
below flight level 100 shall remain at least 1,500 metres horizontally and 1,000 feet
vertically away from cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 5 km.
(3) Paragraph (2) shall not apply to an aircraft which:
(a) flies at or below 3,000 feet above mean sea level;
(b) remains clear of cloud with the surface in sight; and
(c) is in a flight visibility of at least 5 km.
(4) Paragraph (2) shall not apply to an aircraft which is not a helicopter and which:
(a) flies at or below 3,000 feet above mean sea level;
(b) flies at a speed which, according to its air speed indicator, is 140 knots or less;
(c) remains clear of cloud with the surface in sight; and
(d) is in a flight visibility of at least 1,500 metres.
(5) Paragraph (2) shall not apply to a helicopter which:
(a) flies at or below 3,000 feet above mean sea level;
(b) flies at a speed which, having regard to the visibility, is reasonable;
(c) remains clear of cloud with the surface in sight; and
(d) is in a flight visibility of at least 1,500 metres.
(6) Paragraphs (1) and (2) shall not apply to a helicopter which is air-taxiing or conducting
manoeuvres in accordance with rule 6(i).
Joined: Oct 2000
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From: Northants
The UK military used to fly single engined, unstabilised helicopters in IMC.
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 356
Likes: 2
From: France
Single Engine IFR
I've been through many threads here, but I still cannot find the answers.
1 Everybody seems to agree that single engine helicopter IFR is forbidden even for private flights in the UK. Where can I find the official rule? I could not find it in the ANO using the search capability of adobe reader.
2 Are there any single engine Easa or FAA certified helicopters authorized by their Flight Manual for IFR operation, even with limitations? I've been through Eurocopter, Robinson, and Bell websites, but could not find any.
1 Everybody seems to agree that single engine helicopter IFR is forbidden even for private flights in the UK. Where can I find the official rule? I could not find it in the ANO using the search capability of adobe reader.
2 Are there any single engine Easa or FAA certified helicopters authorized by their Flight Manual for IFR operation, even with limitations? I've been through Eurocopter, Robinson, and Bell websites, but could not find any.
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 280
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From: bora scirocco
You can still find a few (at least four) IFR certified B206 Long Rangers in Europe, where you can train and fly the SE/IR(H), under EASA rules.
For example, Proflight Nordic in Sweden (2 helicopters), Billund in Denmark, also one in Holland ... Hope it helps!
JR
For example, Proflight Nordic in Sweden (2 helicopters), Billund in Denmark, also one in Holland ... Hope it helps!
JR
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 921
Likes: 30
From: Europe
For helicopters - CAT only:
SUBPART I – PERFORMANCE CLASS 3
JAR-OPS 3.540 General
SUBPART I – PERFORMANCE CLASS 3
JAR-OPS 3.540 General
(c) An operator shall ensure that operations are not conducted:
(1) out of sight of the surface;
(2) at night;
(3) when the ceiling is less than 600 ft; or
(4) when the visibility is less than 800m.]
(2) at night;
(3) when the ceiling is less than 600 ft; or
(4) when the visibility is less than 800m.]
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I don't think private flight in a single engine helicopter under IFR is forbidden in the UK. All you have to do is observe the requirement of Rule 6 of the Rules of the Air Regulations 2007, and have appropriate license privileges and an appropriately equipped machine.
I can't at the moment find anything prohibiting private flight in a single engine helicopter in IMC either at the moment, although you'd have to be careful of Rule 5(3)(a) of the same regulations. That's the part of the low flying rule (Rule 5) which talks about the failure of a power unit not endangering persons or property on the surface.
I can't at the moment find anything prohibiting private flight in a single engine helicopter in IMC either at the moment, although you'd have to be careful of Rule 5(3)(a) of the same regulations. That's the part of the low flying rule (Rule 5) which talks about the failure of a power unit not endangering persons or property on the surface.
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 356
Likes: 2
From: France
Thank you for your answer. So there is no special regulation in the UK about single engine IFR helicopter, it's forbidden for public transportation, as everywhere else in Europe, but not forbidden for private operation.
Can a AS350 for instance be authorised for IFR operation? What kind of expensive stuff is required to add to a night VFR one to enable IFR operation?
I cannot find anything on their websites. On Eurocopter and Bell website, there is a paint configurator (who needs that?) but almost nothing about performance or kind of operation.
Can a AS350 for instance be authorised for IFR operation? What kind of expensive stuff is required to add to a night VFR one to enable IFR operation?
I cannot find anything on their websites. On Eurocopter and Bell website, there is a paint configurator (who needs that?) but almost nothing about performance or kind of operation.
Last edited by 172510; 23rd November 2013 at 16:16.
