Over the top reaction to ABC chopper crash
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From: America/Australia
Over the top reaction to ABC chopper crash
14 Nov 13 ninemsn report:
"The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) will require all helicopters flying after dark to be equipped with an autopilot or to use two-pilot crews following the crash which killed journalist Paul Lockyer, cameraman John Bean and pilot Gary Ticehurst".
If the above CASA intent is true, I think it is poorly thought out and over the top. Anyone who has flown any aircraft, fixed or rotor night VFR in remote Australia knows you have to be extremely disciplined especially during the takeoff and landing phase but the flight can be conducted safely. This includes using good airmanship, all available instruments, and not flying in some conditions where the horizon is difficult to define.
My intent is not to criticise or pass judgement on the pilot in this tragic crash,but only to point out that we are already over regulated and requiring an autopilot or two pilot crews for night VFR flight is over the top.
"The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) will require all helicopters flying after dark to be equipped with an autopilot or to use two-pilot crews following the crash which killed journalist Paul Lockyer, cameraman John Bean and pilot Gary Ticehurst".
If the above CASA intent is true, I think it is poorly thought out and over the top. Anyone who has flown any aircraft, fixed or rotor night VFR in remote Australia knows you have to be extremely disciplined especially during the takeoff and landing phase but the flight can be conducted safely. This includes using good airmanship, all available instruments, and not flying in some conditions where the horizon is difficult to define.
My intent is not to criticise or pass judgement on the pilot in this tragic crash,but only to point out that we are already over regulated and requiring an autopilot or two pilot crews for night VFR flight is over the top.
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From: UK and MALTA
Duke - the same rule already applies in EASALAND for CAT flights after a similar spate of crashes and a large body count.
It my seem over the top to you but ask yourself? Would you allow your kids to be flown, at night, over the inky blackness in an unstabilsed machine.
It never ceases to amaze me how dumb we pilots seem when we show determination to continue to repeat the same mistakes in the same circumstances, resisting all efforts to make progress!!
About time CASA!!
It my seem over the top to you but ask yourself? Would you allow your kids to be flown, at night, over the inky blackness in an unstabilsed machine.
It never ceases to amaze me how dumb we pilots seem when we show determination to continue to repeat the same mistakes in the same circumstances, resisting all efforts to make progress!!
About time CASA!!
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From: Downeast
It my seem over the top to you but ask yourself? Would you allow your kids to be flown, at night, over the inky blackness in an unstabilsed machine.
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From: UK and MALTA
SAS I know and most flights proceed safely but the risk is always there and it does not take much to turn a safe flight path into uncontrolled mayhem.
Like I said, its progression. We should not resist it.
Would we really like to go on holiday over the land or ocean at night in an airliner that has no Autopilot. Of course not so why should we expect helicopter pax to suffer this.
DB
Like I said, its progression. We should not resist it.
Would we really like to go on holiday over the land or ocean at night in an airliner that has no Autopilot. Of course not so why should we expect helicopter pax to suffer this.
DB
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From: Germany
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
My intent is not to criticise or pass judgement on the pilot in this tragic crash,but only to point out that we are already over regulated and requiring an autopilot or two pilot crews for night VFR flight is over the top.
The price of the flight goes up, of course, but at least everyone has to comply.
I'm not an out and out supporter of the "twin engine only" club because a properly IFR equipped and stabilised, powerful single can be just as safe as a twin, imho. But in UK we aren't allowed to fly singles at night for PT.
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From: Downeast
DB.....i am all for IFR Twins at Night...or at least Auto-Pilots on Singles at a very minimum! Twas just pointing out the FAA takes a completely opposite view to things.
I am a realist enough to understand we are far less a Nanny state over here than you folks are over there.
I also understand the value of a Pilot that knows how to say "NO!".....and also the extremely high value of one that knows when to shout "HELL NO!".
Our FAA Part 135 (Air Taxi Regs) requires visible surface light reference for Night VFR.....our FAA Part 91 (Non-Commercial Flights) does not.
So the FAA draws a very peculiar line re safety of Night VFR flight operations for helicopters re Night Flights.
I am a realist enough to understand we are far less a Nanny state over here than you folks are over there.
I also understand the value of a Pilot that knows how to say "NO!".....and also the extremely high value of one that knows when to shout "HELL NO!".
Our FAA Part 135 (Air Taxi Regs) requires visible surface light reference for Night VFR.....our FAA Part 91 (Non-Commercial Flights) does not.
So the FAA draws a very peculiar line re safety of Night VFR flight operations for helicopters re Night Flights.
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Problem is, as we found in UK, until the regulatory body calls the shots and puts regs in place, if a pilot says "Hell no!" he will just be replaced with one who says "Hell yes!"
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From: Warrington, UK
not flying in some conditions where the horizon is difficult to define.
require all helicopters flying after dark to be equipped with an autopilot
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From: Earth
Night VFR on a dark night over water or Outback Australia with no ground illumination is Visual in name only. I know on a night with a good moon up or over a built up area night flying is as easy as day VFR and less busy, however these changes are necessary and may stop the ones who follow the rules getting themselves killed.
Last edited by Heliringer; 16th November 2013 at 22:36.
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
NVG as an alternative? NVG will allow the pilot to press on in conditions where he couldn't see unaided - that's what they are for. So what do you think would happen if the conditions then deteriorated below NVG limits? You have gone well beyond the unaided "Night VFR" option.
Ever tried a transition to instruments at night after going inadvertent IMC in an unstabilised helicopter? Ever tried it in a helicopter whilst wearing NVG? You are in a similar situation as without, but your eyes will take a few seconds more to adjust (those few critical seconds are what kills pilots) and the chances are you'll now be staying on instruments for the rest of the flight.
Been there, done it, had it done to me. Give me aircraft stabilisation please, rather than NVG - any day (or rather, any night).
Ever tried a transition to instruments at night after going inadvertent IMC in an unstabilised helicopter? Ever tried it in a helicopter whilst wearing NVG? You are in a similar situation as without, but your eyes will take a few seconds more to adjust (those few critical seconds are what kills pilots) and the chances are you'll now be staying on instruments for the rest of the flight.
Been there, done it, had it done to me. Give me aircraft stabilisation please, rather than NVG - any day (or rather, any night).
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From: UK/OZ
I know on a night with a good moon up or over a built up area night flying is as easy as day VFR and less busy, however these changes are necessary and may stop the ones who follow the rules getting themselves killed.
Good airmanship?
Do we really need regs to stop such flights?
That the client have immediately banned, without question, all night flights presumes that they were not made aware of the hazards of night flying?
How frequently did crews from this organisation fly without any visual ground references?
Improved governance and oversight of media ops is what is needed, particularly for small or one man band operations that have little or no oversight by safety pilot or management of individual flights.
Relying on legislation to eliminate what is poor airmanship will not prevent the next media accident.
ABC don't get it, they continue to explain that their pilot was Australia's best… as if faulty regulation somehow blinds even the most experienced of aviators.
Mickjoebill
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Do we really need regs to stop such flights?
Commercial pressure, or a simple desire to always get the job done may be direct, implied, or self induced. But it is always there.
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From: Downeast
The real rub in this, particularly in the wonderful world of the US FAA, is Weather Minima is visibility and ceiling.....and has no concern about whether there is a visible horizon or adequate surface light reference to manually control the helicopter (under Part 91 Rules).
A well known Arabian Gulf Oil Company, whose aviation department was an off shoot of the existing PHI operation, used that in their decision to buy Bell 212's. they opted to add Air Con but removed the previously contracted Sperry Helipilot system in order to save weight and costs. They eventually removed the Air Con's to reduce the weight of the aircraft further. Not that the crews were sweating enough in the dark over water with no horizon in an un-stabllized helicopter.
They predicated that decision upon the idea that night flights offshore conducted in good VFR weather was not of the character to require an autopilot or even Stability Augmentation.
Never mind on a hazy night there might not be any kind of horizon visible for quite some time....thus requiring the flight to be made using Instruments alone.
I was so impressed with that amazing management wisdom that I decided to use my current Sign In name......"Sasless".
Sadly, I have never been surprised by the utter stupidity some Helicopter Flight Department Managers can display. Every now and then you do run into a situation that so impresses you that you have to find a way to commemorate superior achievement in that endeavor.
Just because the Law or Regulation or even Company Policy tells you a flight can be conducted VFR at Night....that does not make it a VFR flight.
If you cannot see a horizon by looking outside the windows....and you have to maintain control of the aircraft SOLELY by use of the flight instruments.....you are IMC and should be flying IFR with all the required kit, crew, training, and infrastructure.
A well known Arabian Gulf Oil Company, whose aviation department was an off shoot of the existing PHI operation, used that in their decision to buy Bell 212's. they opted to add Air Con but removed the previously contracted Sperry Helipilot system in order to save weight and costs. They eventually removed the Air Con's to reduce the weight of the aircraft further. Not that the crews were sweating enough in the dark over water with no horizon in an un-stabllized helicopter.
They predicated that decision upon the idea that night flights offshore conducted in good VFR weather was not of the character to require an autopilot or even Stability Augmentation.
Never mind on a hazy night there might not be any kind of horizon visible for quite some time....thus requiring the flight to be made using Instruments alone.
I was so impressed with that amazing management wisdom that I decided to use my current Sign In name......"Sasless".
Sadly, I have never been surprised by the utter stupidity some Helicopter Flight Department Managers can display. Every now and then you do run into a situation that so impresses you that you have to find a way to commemorate superior achievement in that endeavor.
Just because the Law or Regulation or even Company Policy tells you a flight can be conducted VFR at Night....that does not make it a VFR flight.
If you cannot see a horizon by looking outside the windows....and you have to maintain control of the aircraft SOLELY by use of the flight instruments.....you are IMC and should be flying IFR with all the required kit, crew, training, and infrastructure.
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From: A better place.
Sas,
forgive my ignorance but a genuine question - what does Sas actually mean in reference to your username?
Stability Augmentation System?
As you are a former military chopper pilot I first thought it meant you no longer had any special forces buddies in the back... but then that couldn't be right as you are american...
forgive my ignorance but a genuine question - what does Sas actually mean in reference to your username?
Stability Augmentation System?
As you are a former military chopper pilot I first thought it meant you no longer had any special forces buddies in the back... but then that couldn't be right as you are american...