ATC Whoops
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2012
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From: durham, nc
ATC Whoops
I was giving an instrument check ride the other night in an SA-365. We were being vectored for an ILS. The controller told us he was going to sequence us in behind another aircraft. He told us to turn to 350 and "hold there." The pilot flying turned to 350 and then asked me what he should do. Just then approach called us and said to "just hold there." I took the radio and asked the controller just what he wanted us to do. I said we had no holding instructions, no holding fix. What did he want us to do. He said "Just hover there." I answered that it was an unacceptable request and I would not comply. He said "You are a helicopter right? Just hover." I informed him that I would not hover at 3,000 ft at 0100. He needed to come up with an alternate plan. He expressed his surprise but then came up with a plan. I have heard of this kind of thing happening but always thought it was just a war story. Never believed it could happen to me.
Joined: Aug 2012
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From: Hassocks, Mid-Sussex
sa365; You become part of the problem if you don't address this.
I'm not saying you should lodge a formal complaint (there was no serious incident - and I deeply dislike "grassers" and "snitches") but you could follow-up with the controller directly and or his supervisor (keeping it within the local ATC team) with a view to helping them understand why simply ceasing all forward motion to comply with a "static" hold is unrealistic.
At the same time you might enquire as to what training is given for ATCO's to help them understand helicopter performance parameters as per S76Heavy's comment.
If it appears that there is a fundamental flaw in the training system, then take it higher.
This is the responsible approach, as opposed to doing nothing and endorsing a situation where another helicopter pilot could potentially encounter something similar (or worse) in the future.
I'm not saying you should lodge a formal complaint (there was no serious incident - and I deeply dislike "grassers" and "snitches") but you could follow-up with the controller directly and or his supervisor (keeping it within the local ATC team) with a view to helping them understand why simply ceasing all forward motion to comply with a "static" hold is unrealistic.
At the same time you might enquire as to what training is given for ATCO's to help them understand helicopter performance parameters as per S76Heavy's comment.
If it appears that there is a fundamental flaw in the training system, then take it higher.
This is the responsible approach, as opposed to doing nothing and endorsing a situation where another helicopter pilot could potentially encounter something similar (or worse) in the future.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 927
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From: Germany
Hi sa 365,
were you GPS-equipped?
Why not just press Waypoint - and fly a holding with that point and heading?
Would be nice to verfy to the controller answering, flying holding at present position and no hassle at all....
Greetings Flying Bull
were you GPS-equipped?
Why not just press Waypoint - and fly a holding with that point and heading?
Would be nice to verfy to the controller answering, flying holding at present position and no hassle at all....
Greetings Flying Bull
Last edited by Flying Bull; 18th July 2013 at 13:08.
Joined: Nov 2005
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
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From: Wildest Surrey
As you were being vectored, I presume you were working a Tracon rather than a Rapcon, so it would have been FAA Controllers rather than contracted; any FAA controllers care to comment?
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 927
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From: Germany
Hi,
found a pprune thread which might be interesting ...
http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-fl...s-holding.html
and Table 3C-56. Holding Present Position Procedure
so not uncommon - even so this time the "hover-order" shows, thar there was a misunderstandig
Greetings Flying Bull
found a pprune thread which might be interesting ...
http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-fl...s-holding.html
and Table 3C-56. Holding Present Position Procedure
so not uncommon - even so this time the "hover-order" shows, thar there was a misunderstandig
Greetings Flying Bull
Last edited by Flying Bull; 18th July 2013 at 13:22.
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Sounds like a good one for chirp to be honest.
cause they are bloody good a fitting the whole circus together.
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 1,083
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
But then they have probably "got accustomed" to helicopters, rather than being given formal training.... 
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 605
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From: UK
So, kudos to HCGB for their annual NATS event -alternate years they fly Heathrow controllers round the London zone, and the other years the pilots are hosted in the tower and radar room. Each group then understands each other better and everyone's happier, wiser etc
I guess there is scope for this to be repeated in other locations in the UK than London, and in other countries?
I guess there is scope for this to be repeated in other locations in the UK than London, and in other countries?
