UK Air Ambulance night flights

[jayteeto]

Day recced sites went years ago. In the mid 90s we were going into 'blind' sites. AND we were the softie RAF

[MightyGem]

how often would the aircrew in question get to practice flying into unknown sites by night on NVG or mortal?

If the HEMS/AAs are covered by the same regs as the Police aircraft, then NVG landings at Ad Hoc(un-recced) sites are not allowed for training.

I don't know if the rest of the crew help out on this in a HEMs aircraft.

The medics(they are classed as passengers, rather than crew) would be trained on NVGs to help and assist the pilot on all aspects of landing at an unknown site.

[jayteeto]

Ah yes, however under easa there may be some confusing this crew/pax status...........

[SASless]

Just like US FAA Regulations about Passengers and Crew....which causes some serious issues in the USA EMS Business.

Then throw in the Part 91 versus Part 135 Weather Limitations and such when there are no "Patients" aboard the aircraft.

[homonculus]

Can someone tell me how long it takes to train an ambulance man to assist a landing on NVGs ????? I thought from my discussions with military pilots that this was one of the harder things they did and needed considerable training and ongoing practice. Many ambulance crew merely rotate onto HEMS for short periods. On one system the doctors just fly odd weekends.

If it is that simple I find it odd that we don't allow anyone who can buy a pair and adapt the cockpit to have the benefits. Yest we now learn that even police pilots are not allowed to land at un recced sites.

I am trying hard to understand all this, being only an ignorant doctor, but there does not seem to be a thread of consistent logic.

[Aucky]

Yest we now learn that even police pilots are not allowed to land at un recced sites.

The police have been landing at Ad-hoc sites, without NVG for years, lighting the site by airborne lights (night-sun), and in some cases doubling up as night HEMS with a paramedic onboard. MightyGem said it's not allowed for training.

[[email protected]]

MightyGem said it's not allowed for training.

there's a well thought out safety management system - 'you can do it operationally but we won't let you train to do it' - genius!

Presumably someone has created a NVG course for ambulance paramedics, which is approved and overseen by the CAA with an appropriate qualification issued at the end of it?

Since the front seat paramedic isn't flight crew and doesn't have a licence, even if he/she makes a mistake and causes an incident/accident, the poor pilot will take the blame - seems like 2-pilot ops is the sensible way forward.

[Thomas coupling]

Crab: welcome to civvy world.

The CAA are doing their best not to restrict helo ops by allowing ad hoc at night landings for public service ops BUT at the same time towing(sic) the line trying to maintain their safety mantra in that why push the envelope during training? The same goes for safe single engine parameters in that public service AOC's can hover/winch when not SSE only in "anger", ie: when life is at risk, BUT they cannot train under these restricted parameters.
I think you will find that already this is pervading military ops to a lesser degree as MAA manifests itself.
[Do Merlin's practice auto's anymore? Why do PPI's at height? I can see the winch weight checks being stopped due to TR issues etc etc etc]
Welcome to the nanny state.

A suitable person can 'assist' the pilot during certain ops when operating under (the old) JAR Ops 3.005d, I think it is.
There are conditions in that the CAA must satisfy themselves that the operating area is suitable for this 'support' to be implemented. For instance, they would not ordain a clearance for the HEMS crewman to support the pilot on NVG's if the operating area was below light minima's or in mountainous areaS etc. But there is a porotocol for hems crewpersons to assist on these operations and it does go on.

Again, the normal caveat exists: I can only talk about the UK. Most of the country isn't too far from some form of ambient lighting and this is what the CAA hang their hats on when discussing limits. When you start discussing long inhospitable terrain legs in dark inky black surroundings - this is an entirely different beast indeed
The yanks/Aussies have their own unique problems in this regard.

PS: Get yourself up here so we can beast you later today!!!

[Ricorigs]

No unit is breaching anything

Daylight recces are only required if you planning to go below certain heights on the route or if you wish to land directly onto your selected point.

J2317.110 JHC FOB mentions the un-recce'd landing site landing technique must be used if it hasn't been checked by day.

[SilsoeSid]

No unit is breaching anything
Daylight recces are only required if you planning to go below certain heights.

How much lower than landing do you usually fly Ricorigs?

[jayteeto]

Easa are sniffing around the crew/passenger status. As TC states, welcome to the world of civil aviation! Just because the mil would have a formal qual, doesn't mean the pax do........

[MightyGem]

Can someone tell me how long it takes to train an ambulance man to assist a landing on NVGs ?

If Paramedics are trained the same as Police Observers, then it'll be an hour or so of groundschool, then a 1 hour training sortie, split between the front and the back of the aircraft, then a 40 minute check ride, again split between front and back. However, that's going from Stage 1 to Stage 2. I believe that the AAs will be trained straight to Stage 2, so the training will be slightly longer.

The main problem at the moment(for us anyway) is a lack of NVG TREs. Having done the training we seem unlikely to get authorised due to the CAA unable to come up before our last NVG TRE goes to pastures new.

'you can do it operationally but we won't let you train to do it'

Crab, I thought you were harping on about the requirement for daylight recces earlier? We can go into a field at night as a training sortie, as long as it's been recced.