UK Air Ambulance night flights
Crab, for once I agree with you -
Actually, that wasn't the point I was trying to make - Given the choice, I would fly with two pilots and a 4 axis autopilot; however, it is too easy to say 'two pilots safer than one' and leave it there. Why don't we ever ask 'why do two pilots working together keep managing to fly serviceable aircraft into the sea?'
My personal view is that the level of stress/arousal, whatever CRM term you want to use, was higher back in the days when we were shuttling around offshore at 300' in the dark on our own, because we were bloody scared! That and the rules and procedures of the time seemed to keep us out of the water.
Move across to the HEMS world and ask why so many of the, generally rare, wire/tree strikes seem to happen in large open spaces rather than landing in confined spaces - is it because the stress/arousal level is much lower when going into what appears to be a 'nice safe site'?
It is easy to say
It may be logical but that doesn't necessarily mean it is correct.
Cheers
TeeS
The number of pilots on board is irrelevant
Actually, that wasn't the point I was trying to make - Given the choice, I would fly with two pilots and a 4 axis autopilot; however, it is too easy to say 'two pilots safer than one' and leave it there. Why don't we ever ask 'why do two pilots working together keep managing to fly serviceable aircraft into the sea?'
My personal view is that the level of stress/arousal, whatever CRM term you want to use, was higher back in the days when we were shuttling around offshore at 300' in the dark on our own, because we were bloody scared! That and the rules and procedures of the time seemed to keep us out of the water.
Move across to the HEMS world and ask why so many of the, generally rare, wire/tree strikes seem to happen in large open spaces rather than landing in confined spaces - is it because the stress/arousal level is much lower when going into what appears to be a 'nice safe site'?
It is easy to say
It's pretty logical that by having a second set of trained eyes, second set..... etc.
Cheers
TeeS
No NVIS landings - all landings to be done with Floodlights from approx. 500ft AGL - or so I understand.
Yes, that does rather defeat the object of NVG flight - unless all you want to use them for is enhanced lookout in the cruise.
White light and NVD can work well together but only when the white light is used to enhance the goggle picture. Swapping from NVD to white light can also be disorientating and a white light only approach (whether using nitesun or floodlights) is not as easy to fly as an NVD approach with white light assistance.
Have any of the AA units considered talking to the SAR Force about their planned procedures? We have probably the most experience in mixed NVD/white light ops (extensive use of NVD but no tactical considerations) and going into unrecced sites using a mixture of the two is bread and butter stuff.
MG - I know what you are talking about with Cat 1 and 2 but JHC is all Cat A, B and C nowadays - anyway Cat 2 was to GL for manoeuvering into anti-tank firing positions - that might be a step too far for AA (unless the AA stands for anti-armour)
Tees - you are right - procedures keep you safe but only when you follow them
White light and NVD can work well together but only when the white light is used to enhance the goggle picture. Swapping from NVD to white light can also be disorientating and a white light only approach (whether using nitesun or floodlights) is not as easy to fly as an NVD approach with white light assistance.
Have any of the AA units considered talking to the SAR Force about their planned procedures? We have probably the most experience in mixed NVD/white light ops (extensive use of NVD but no tactical considerations) and going into unrecced sites using a mixture of the two is bread and butter stuff.
MG - I know what you are talking about with Cat 1 and 2 but JHC is all Cat A, B and C nowadays - anyway Cat 2 was to GL for manoeuvering into anti-tank firing positions - that might be a step too far for AA (unless the AA stands for anti-armour)
Tees - you are right - procedures keep you safe but only when you follow them
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Why don't we ever ask 'why do two pilots working together keep managing to fly serviceable aircraft into the sea?'
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Crab, thanks for telling us how badly we are doing things, of course the company has no NVG experienced pilots amongst their ex army, navy and air force personnel. We didnt talk to the military of course 
and we are introducing this blind.
Those of you who are going to ground level on gogs, great, well done, crack on. The CAA seem to like our system, thats why they are allowing it. Note that one, THEY are allowing it.
and we are introducing this blind.Those of you who are going to ground level on gogs, great, well done, crack on. The CAA seem to like our system, thats why they are allowing it. Note that one, THEY are allowing it.
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PS. I would qualify to be Prime Minister if i genuinely thought nothing could go wrong using this system. The question- 'IF pilots follow procedures' counts for any job in life, personalities always fight the system in any aviation field. So lets forget that one.
Any system can be changed if it doesnt work, trial it, assess and debrief. This will not be set in stone, so lets see how it works. Give opinions by all means, but just because it isnt done your way, doesnt mean it is wrong.
Any system can be changed if it doesnt work, trial it, assess and debrief. This will not be set in stone, so lets see how it works. Give opinions by all means, but just because it isnt done your way, doesnt mean it is wrong.
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Crab, thanks for telling us how badly we are doing things, of course the company has no NVG experienced pilots amongst their ex army, navy and air force personnel. We didnt talk to the military of course and we are introducing this blind.
TC
Thank you for your comments. The consensus from organisations such as Quinetiq seems to be that the civilian industry may well lead the military in DNAE technology. Certainly it seems the computing capability that allows for synthetic vision is being harnessed by civilian applications before the military in some respects.
I agree that one day we may all be using these technologies for safe all weather flying, but don't get me on my hobby horse as I have questioned for years why the regulators have been such Luddites
However I worry that point to point flying using such technology and ending up at a predetermined landing site with known terrain clearance and possible DGPS (which would facilitate for example police operations) is quite different from HEMS with the need to seek out an LZ at the time together with the cockpit work
OAS of what is an unplanned flight. We have all seen how London HEMS had had multiple collisions on the ground operating in the day despite 27 years of experience. Night vehicle accidents are often on minor rural roads with overhanging trees, surrounded by fields with livestock, cables and crops.
The use of Nightsun is also interesting. We were flying night inter hospital flights in 1987 when Uncle Ian suggested the use of a police helicopter with offset Nightsun to illuminate a medical helicopter landing. He might like to tell you the response!!
Thank you for your comments. The consensus from organisations such as Quinetiq seems to be that the civilian industry may well lead the military in DNAE technology. Certainly it seems the computing capability that allows for synthetic vision is being harnessed by civilian applications before the military in some respects.
I agree that one day we may all be using these technologies for safe all weather flying, but don't get me on my hobby horse as I have questioned for years why the regulators have been such Luddites
However I worry that point to point flying using such technology and ending up at a predetermined landing site with known terrain clearance and possible DGPS (which would facilitate for example police operations) is quite different from HEMS with the need to seek out an LZ at the time together with the cockpit work
OAS of what is an unplanned flight. We have all seen how London HEMS had had multiple collisions on the ground operating in the day despite 27 years of experience. Night vehicle accidents are often on minor rural roads with overhanging trees, surrounded by fields with livestock, cables and crops.
The use of Nightsun is also interesting. We were flying night inter hospital flights in 1987 when Uncle Ian suggested the use of a police helicopter with offset Nightsun to illuminate a medical helicopter landing. He might like to tell you the response!!
Hi Aucky
I was talking about the various two-pilot incidents of controlled flight into water that have happened in UK waters over the past 25 years, in comparison to the lack of similar, single-pilot, events in the early offshore years. The two pilot ops were supposed to reduce human error, I'm not convinced that they have done!
I don't want to invoke thread drift here, my initial comment was intended to counter SARWannabe's suggestion that two NVG pilots up front were automatically, and substantially, safer than one pilot and a training HEMS crewmember.
Cheers
TeeS
I was talking about the various two-pilot incidents of controlled flight into water that have happened in UK waters over the past 25 years, in comparison to the lack of similar, single-pilot, events in the early offshore years. The two pilot ops were supposed to reduce human error, I'm not convinced that they have done!
I don't want to invoke thread drift here, my initial comment was intended to counter SARWannabe's suggestion that two NVG pilots up front were automatically, and substantially, safer than one pilot and a training HEMS crewmember.
Cheers
TeeS
Perhaps just perhaps, Crab you could have a slightly more balanced view on single pilot NVG by explaining what single pilot operational NVG flying you have done and based your opinion on.
Sadly, I feel a slight barb in your issue about "military pilots" that have in the past. I'm not in this for an argument or even discussion but I do have over 300 hours of single pilot operational NVG flying in twin engined helicopters and a total of over a thousand with 2 pilots I personally never found it particularly so difficult that I needed another pilot onboard. Just occasionally working offshore (military) onto the 'stranger' platforms we had to land on, took extreme care but with a good system of steerable black light it was fine as was going into un- recce'd site on land. I could not agree more at sea it was more difficult and you really did need to take extreme care in respect of becoming disorientated.
All I ask you to consider is there are two sides to every argument albeit whatever system, crew, aircraft operation the CAA eventually allow HEMS to operate under, it will be done in accordance with that instruction which in turn will be reflected by the operations manual.
Sadly, I feel a slight barb in your issue about "military pilots" that have in the past. I'm not in this for an argument or even discussion but I do have over 300 hours of single pilot operational NVG flying in twin engined helicopters and a total of over a thousand with 2 pilots I personally never found it particularly so difficult that I needed another pilot onboard. Just occasionally working offshore (military) onto the 'stranger' platforms we had to land on, took extreme care but with a good system of steerable black light it was fine as was going into un- recce'd site on land. I could not agree more at sea it was more difficult and you really did need to take extreme care in respect of becoming disorientated.
All I ask you to consider is there are two sides to every argument albeit whatever system, crew, aircraft operation the CAA eventually allow HEMS to operate under, it will be done in accordance with that instruction which in turn will be reflected by the operations manual.
Blimey - there are some sensitive souls around today!
Jayteeto - I am well aware that you have mil experience and that there are many out there in AA land with the same - my point was that most will have been SH where the mix of white light and NVG was not used for tactical reasons. Unless you have some people of very recent SAR background, they probably won't be that used to mixing white light and NVG either because the teaching up to a few years ago was that it was one or the other. I was, in fact, trying to help so there is no need to throw your teddy out of the pram and assume I am telling you that you are doing it wrong.
MOSTAFA - ex 8 flt then, or more likely ex-junglie - and your 'never found it a problem' attitude is exactly what isn't needed in AA ops.
I am well aware that the CAA will ensure AA night flight on NVD is carried out safely - that is what I alluded to near the beginning of this thread.
Jayteeto - I am well aware that you have mil experience and that there are many out there in AA land with the same - my point was that most will have been SH where the mix of white light and NVG was not used for tactical reasons. Unless you have some people of very recent SAR background, they probably won't be that used to mixing white light and NVG either because the teaching up to a few years ago was that it was one or the other. I was, in fact, trying to help so there is no need to throw your teddy out of the pram and assume I am telling you that you are doing it wrong.
MOSTAFA - ex 8 flt then, or more likely ex-junglie - and your 'never found it a problem' attitude is exactly what isn't needed in AA ops.
I am well aware that the CAA will ensure AA night flight on NVD is carried out safely - that is what I alluded to near the beginning of this thread.
Avoid imitations
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Unless you have some people of very recent SAR background, they probably won't be that used to mixing white light and NVG either because the teaching up to a few years ago was that it was one or the other.
SH Puma were flying with night vision devices and white light (internal and external!) in 1979. Training and trials I personally took part in (UK and Germany) originally used PNG prior to the issue of NVG. We used white light because there was no such thing as an NVG / Black light searchlight or floodlight, or even NVG compatible cockpit lighting.
We were still teaching NVG on 240 OCU with white lights in the mid to late 80s. The "black light" external lights only came in to use on the Puma fleet in the early 1990s.
Shy - point taken but goggle technology has come on a long way since then so using white light with them is far more manageable now the goggles don't close down.
Tees - it is the approach and landing phase I am talking about.
Tees - it is the approach and landing phase I am talking about.
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Its not teddies out the cot. You know, it is frustrating sometimes when people are constantly undermining your company. Let me tell you, Bond are a professionally run company who i am very proud to work for. I am easily as impressed with them as i ever was with CFS/RAF or any other unit. They do not blindly push on if something doesnt work, unlike some military units i was on.
Please just cut us some slack and comment once we have a few months under the belt. I promise to admit we were wrong if we actually are!
Please just cut us some slack and comment once we have a few months under the belt. I promise to admit we were wrong if we actually are!
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Shy - point taken but goggle technology has come on a long way since then so using white light with them is far more manageable now the goggles don't close down.
Having been an NVG instructor for about half my military career and then later as a civvy, I'd be very happy to don a pair of modern goggles. But in my role we don't even get to wear helmets (hence my earlier response to TC's comment that corporate pilots would soon be forced to use them).
Jayteeto
I would be interested to know what training you are giving the medical crew to be able to work in a darkened cab. A ground ambulance is not only fully lit in the back at night but indeed has examination lights. I presume this would not be the case in a hello.
How do you do medical procedures in the dark? And how do you manage with relatively large monitors and pumps which are normally lit if the cockpit is NVGS enabled?
I would be interested to know what training you are giving the medical crew to be able to work in a darkened cab. A ground ambulance is not only fully lit in the back at night but indeed has examination lights. I presume this would not be the case in a hello.
How do you do medical procedures in the dark? And how do you manage with relatively large monitors and pumps which are normally lit if the cockpit is NVGS enabled?
Homonculus, if they don't already have a natural cabin structure separating the front from the back, they use black out curtains.
[Plus with keyhole surgery, not much light escapes thru the keyhole]
[Plus with keyhole surgery, not much light escapes thru the keyhole
]