Brakes (On or Off)
Join Date: Jan 2001
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I think the question should be " Is it safe to set the brake in flight". As is the belief of someone in the air ambulance system in Canada.
It sounds as if all the people that have commented in this forum have no problems with setting the brake in flight.
It should be up to the PIC to decide whether the pad warrants it or not. In my opinion it would be unsafe to NOT have the brake on in some circumstances, like landing on the top of a tall building or tight pad out in the “briny blue”. A lot of pads are not level and can be quite tight so being prepared and having the brakes on for touch down could save some major embarrassment some time. As for the argument that you “square off the tires on landing if the brakes are on” maybe they should practice their hovering skills a bit.
IMO
It sounds as if all the people that have commented in this forum have no problems with setting the brake in flight.
It should be up to the PIC to decide whether the pad warrants it or not. In my opinion it would be unsafe to NOT have the brake on in some circumstances, like landing on the top of a tall building or tight pad out in the “briny blue”. A lot of pads are not level and can be quite tight so being prepared and having the brakes on for touch down could save some major embarrassment some time. As for the argument that you “square off the tires on landing if the brakes are on” maybe they should practice their hovering skills a bit.
IMO
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I would never make an intentional running landing with the brakes on. The danger of landing a helo with locked brakes and forward motion is high, as you have ceeded control of the aircraft at touchdown.
Unless the deck is moving, (in which case it is prudent to land with wheels locked) brakes are optional. One can lock the wheels, or learn to roll your feet to the top of the pedals prior to touchdown, use the brakes as the weight comes on the wheels. With that kind of coordination, you are a real helicopter pilot. If your company procedures say otherwise, or if you feel otherwise, more power to you, that's why they call you "Pilot in Command"!
Unless the deck is moving, (in which case it is prudent to land with wheels locked) brakes are optional. One can lock the wheels, or learn to roll your feet to the top of the pedals prior to touchdown, use the brakes as the weight comes on the wheels. With that kind of coordination, you are a real helicopter pilot. If your company procedures say otherwise, or if you feel otherwise, more power to you, that's why they call you "Pilot in Command"!
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May I assume the same rules for wheeled heli's apply as to fixed wing in tapping the brakes prior to raising the gear?
(Also just tapping to avoid wobbling as wheels turn after liftoff, much more pronounced in fixed wing I'm sure but still posible here?)
this makes me remember a true story (fixed wing, but nice) about a C-12 (king air) crew that took off from Brunswick to P-Cola, they landed and immeadiately blew the mains upon touchdown.
It was discovered they never released the parking brake in brunswick, and actually slid their way to the runway and takeoff up there in the freezing weather.
I was about to throw in something along the lines nick just said, I mean, if we can come into a hover, or hit the brakes just after touchdown (zero speed termination to the deck) why would it matter in having them on prior and risking the negatives brought up?
(Also just tapping to avoid wobbling as wheels turn after liftoff, much more pronounced in fixed wing I'm sure but still posible here?)
this makes me remember a true story (fixed wing, but nice) about a C-12 (king air) crew that took off from Brunswick to P-Cola, they landed and immeadiately blew the mains upon touchdown.
It was discovered they never released the parking brake in brunswick, and actually slid their way to the runway and takeoff up there in the freezing weather.
I was about to throw in something along the lines nick just said, I mean, if we can come into a hover, or hit the brakes just after touchdown (zero speed termination to the deck) why would it matter in having them on prior and risking the negatives brought up?
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Nick,
I understand everything you have stated and agree. I may not have worded my original question properly...so let me try again.
With OEI to a rig/ critical helipad with no run on space available..... brakes set..... committed through CDP..... as I flare, level, pull for touchdown.... WILL THOSE BRAKES PREVENT THE A/C FROM ROLLING FORWARD INTO SOMETHING?
I think they will but have not had an actual OEI event to prove that.( nor do I want to).
To be fair again, with the same parameters as above,but brakes off, is it better to flare...level....pull to touchdown.....then
jam on the brakes to stop the roll?
As for the potential flat spot created on the tire..... that would be the last thing if at all on my mind landing OEI to a deck/ critical helipad.
What say you?
Thanks!
I understand everything you have stated and agree. I may not have worded my original question properly...so let me try again.
With OEI to a rig/ critical helipad with no run on space available..... brakes set..... committed through CDP..... as I flare, level, pull for touchdown.... WILL THOSE BRAKES PREVENT THE A/C FROM ROLLING FORWARD INTO SOMETHING?
I think they will but have not had an actual OEI event to prove that.( nor do I want to).
To be fair again, with the same parameters as above,but brakes off, is it better to flare...level....pull to touchdown.....then
jam on the brakes to stop the roll?
As for the potential flat spot created on the tire..... that would be the last thing if at all on my mind landing OEI to a deck/ critical helipad.
What say you?
Thanks!
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I would suggest brakes off, then apply them after touchdown. You might waste a very few feet. Assume .3 second delay (that's slow) with 15 knots (that's fast) and you would roll an extra 8 feet prior to full brake application. If at 5 konts, its less than 3 feet. Small price to pay for full control at the touchdown.
Nick
Nick
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Thanks for the explanation!
Much appreciated!
P.S.
AND ANOTHER THING!!!!
Just kidding..... Seeing that this forum is generating many questions for you and your Sikorsky gang, how about Sikorsky getting a forum going on the company website directed to us( pilots/ engineers/ training pilots......etc.)
Just a suggestion!
Much appreciated!
P.S.
AND ANOTHER THING!!!!
Just kidding..... Seeing that this forum is generating many questions for you and your Sikorsky gang, how about Sikorsky getting a forum going on the company website directed to us( pilots/ engineers/ training pilots......etc.)
Just a suggestion!
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Hey guys just a quick question.
I have no experience with wheeled helicopters whatsoever, could someone just quickly tell me how the brakes are applied? I'm kinda at a loss, seeing as though our hands and feet are occupied.
I have no experience with wheeled helicopters whatsoever, could someone just quickly tell me how the brakes are applied? I'm kinda at a loss, seeing as though our hands and feet are occupied.
Iconoclast
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When brakes break.
I don’t know if this is applicable to the questions about S-76s and other wheeled helicopters landing on a moving and confined spot but this is the way it was in 1952. We had an S-51 (HO3-S) operating off of an Icebreaker off the Coast of Greenland. We had a 10,000 gallon tank that we were delivering to the Alert weather station on Ellesmere Island and sitting next to that was a Bell HTL-1 which seriously reduced the operating space on the flight deck. The Captain when breaking ice would never alter the direction of the ship to allow a stern approach or, stop the rolling and pitching. The pilots had to land athwartship and in the process try to miss the mast cable stays and a large hoist. All of this when the ship was moving at 90-degrees to the helicopter. During icebreaking the ship would both pitch and roll making the approach even harrier. The S-51 did not have conventional wheel brakes but it did have a parking brake. The parking brake was very ineffective in stopping a moving helicopter if it were set prior to a landing so in most cases the pilots would use aerodynamic braking but that made the landing even harrier because of the possibility of hitting the tail cone. Our braking system consisted of myself and two other crewmembers that would try to jam chocks under the main gear, while hooking up cable ratchet tie downs. God, I’m getting old.
Barannfin,
Brakes are applied (usually) by pushing on a brake pedal mounted at the top of each yaw pedal, with the toe of your foot, which often requires you to shift your feet up the pedal in order to get sufficient leverage.
Pedals are usually differential, giving the ability to use the brakes to assist turns whilst taxiing. Parking brakes are many and various, some requiring application of the toe brake, which is then 'locked' in place with the application of the parking brake, some have alternative parking brake independent of the toe brakes. Some helicopters have brakes for both pilot and co pilot, some are pilot only.
Most effective are those on skid helicopters, although they need a fair bit of power when taxiing......
Brakes are applied (usually) by pushing on a brake pedal mounted at the top of each yaw pedal, with the toe of your foot, which often requires you to shift your feet up the pedal in order to get sufficient leverage.
Pedals are usually differential, giving the ability to use the brakes to assist turns whilst taxiing. Parking brakes are many and various, some requiring application of the toe brake, which is then 'locked' in place with the application of the parking brake, some have alternative parking brake independent of the toe brakes. Some helicopters have brakes for both pilot and co pilot, some are pilot only.
Most effective are those on skid helicopters, although they need a fair bit of power when taxiing......
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Just had the opportunity to see a flight manual supplement for a S76C which was addressing the issue of Cat A vertical landing profile "zero speed". This profile is used for helideck landings "day only".
Interesting enough the first point mentioned in the procedure was "parking brake - set".
Interesting enough the first point mentioned in the procedure was "parking brake - set".
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I just don't trust the parking brake that much. I land with the brakes off, & use the toe brakes, with however much pressure is necessary. Even OEI, with no roll permitted, I think I'd use the toe brakes instead of the parking brake, since I'm likely to jam all the brake I can, & as soon as I apply the toe brakes the parking brake comes off anyway. I trust my feet more than I do the parking brake.
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What about normal lift off to / landing from the hover? Brakes applied or not? Cant speak for other types, but in the 222 the left main gear is on the ground first / off the ground last, effectively giving you a nice pivot point on which to make a fool of yourself.
I keep the brakes on because I reckon that makes things more stable at that critical moment, otherwise its like having castors on your skids, and who needs that??
But...I am quite prepared to be told I'm doing it wrong, so away you all go!
I keep the brakes on because I reckon that makes things more stable at that critical moment, otherwise its like having castors on your skids, and who needs that??
But...I am quite prepared to be told I'm doing it wrong, so away you all go!
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I generally land from & pick up to the hover with toe brakes applied, to some varying degree. With the brakes totally off, the whole aircraft tends to roll backwards when the nose starts down & only the mains on, & I can't see behind me, so I don't want to roll. Offshore, I think it's important to have the toe brakes applied. I would never use the parking brake, though.
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It all depends on the type of take-off you are attempting.
All normal (helipad) take-offs should be done with the brakes released. You should also keep your feet off the toe brakes. Use accurate cyclic and pedal inputs to keep the beast in place.You will have a better feel for what the aircraft is doing and you will not drag a tire on the pavement if your cyclic position is off. Even a 222 will stay in place but takes a lot more pedal management. Thanks for the collective to yaw coupling in the S76 Nick.
If you are attempting a (helipad) take-off where your reject area is only the helipad below and you cannot afford any roll on the reject then the brakes should be set.
In short the only time the brakes should be set is in preparation for an OEI situation on takeoff or landing to an area where you don't have room to roll out.
Just my humble opinion.
Cheers
All normal (helipad) take-offs should be done with the brakes released. You should also keep your feet off the toe brakes. Use accurate cyclic and pedal inputs to keep the beast in place.You will have a better feel for what the aircraft is doing and you will not drag a tire on the pavement if your cyclic position is off. Even a 222 will stay in place but takes a lot more pedal management. Thanks for the collective to yaw coupling in the S76 Nick.
If you are attempting a (helipad) take-off where your reject area is only the helipad below and you cannot afford any roll on the reject then the brakes should be set.
In short the only time the brakes should be set is in preparation for an OEI situation on takeoff or landing to an area where you don't have room to roll out.
Just my humble opinion.
Cheers
Last edited by Xnr; 19th Dec 2002 at 12:14.
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Gentlemen,
I guess that some of you guys must be confusing offshore helicopter flights with carrier landings in the navy. Most offshore guys don't try to bury the helicopter in the helideck at speed - they tend to arrive at the destination in a low hover with zero forward groundspeed? Brakes on is SOP for all wheeled helicopters arriving offshore in the North Sea - Skids should be on for the remainder!!
There is a real difference in reaction between a squadie and an offshore worker to the way in which you present them to their working location.........
Happy Christmas to one and all.
I guess that some of you guys must be confusing offshore helicopter flights with carrier landings in the navy. Most offshore guys don't try to bury the helicopter in the helideck at speed - they tend to arrive at the destination in a low hover with zero forward groundspeed? Brakes on is SOP for all wheeled helicopters arriving offshore in the North Sea - Skids should be on for the remainder!!
There is a real difference in reaction between a squadie and an offshore worker to the way in which you present them to their working location.........
Happy Christmas to one and all.
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brakes on...brakes off!!!
Brakes set for any CRITICAL helipad/ helideck....etc.
Brakes off to any NON-CRITICAL surface.
Brakes set if rejectting vertically to a critical pad/deck.
Brakes off if roll-on can be accomplished to the reject area.
I don't like swimming with sharks!!!!!!!!!!!!
D.K
Brakes off to any NON-CRITICAL surface.
Brakes set if rejectting vertically to a critical pad/deck.
Brakes off if roll-on can be accomplished to the reject area.
I don't like swimming with sharks!!!!!!!!!!!!
D.K
Definately, OFF. Unless you are ging to a Helideck. Ever forgot the brakes on a 76? Yikes, not fun!!!
