So if not Robinson then what?

[evansb]

To quote Philip Greenspun ATR-H:

"Due to its light weight and low inertia rotor system, the R22 is not forgiving of pilot error or sluggishness. After an engine failure, real or simulated, you and the instructor will have 1.6 seconds to lower the collective and enter an autorotation. Any delay beyond 1.6 seconds will be fatal as the rotor speed, once decayed below 80 percent, cannot be recovered. Frank Robinson did not design the R22 to be a trainer; he designed the R22 for a fast cruise speed and fuel efficiency. The R22 thus has a fast cruise speed, high fuel efficiency, and is a terrible trainer. Why do so many flight schools use the R22 for training? It is cheap to operate."

"If you are looking for a trainer, consider the Robinson R44 instead. The R44 has about 4 seconds of rotor inertia rather than 1.6. That gives a pilot time to hear the low rotor RPM warning horn, look at the gauges, come up with a plan, and implement the plan (i.e., lower the collective and enter the autorotation). Count out 4 seconds to yourself and then count out 1.6."


Nick Murray's R-44 Review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COWm...nel=NickMurray

[chopjock]

After an engine failure, real or simulated, you and the instructor will have 1.6 seconds to lower the collective and enter an autorotation

Any delay beyond 1.6 seconds will be fatal

That's not entirely true! If you are tanking along at say, 85Kts and the donk quits, you should be quite able to hold a flare for 4 or 5 seconds, bleeding off the airspeed before lowering the lever.
The 1.6 seconds is probably based on a hover OGE.
So it depends on circumstances.

[haihio]

For many of us the only option to become a helicopter pilot was to train on Robinson aircraft (r22 and r44) the 66 was not available yet.
I now fly a bell 206 and an ec 135, the difference in machines is huge but also the jobs the helicopters are expected to perform is different. I think I was as safe flying the r22 as I am now flying the bell206 or the ec135.
Some of my cfii colleagues with a 1000+ hours of r22 transitioned straight in to heavy lift helicopters and many others with a 1000+ hours of r22 are flying other turbine helicopters all over the world.
There is nothing wrong with a Robinson aircraft if you use it as you are suppose to, having said that tho I know nothing about the Cabri.

Take care!

[olster]

This is a very interesting thread. I empathise with the original poster because I pondered the same issues prior to embarking on a ppl (h) course. I am one of the strange breed of fixed wing pilots who looked at helicopters and idly wondered whether I could hover one ( I could, but it turned out the whole of Yorkshire was needed to contain the initial wild gyrations). Plus I always thought that I understood helicopter aerodynamics ( I didn't). As an airline pilot the limitations of my time available and financial considerations meant that I took 7 years from start to finish, also I was probably fairly useless. However, the main goal was enjoyment and I was not prepared to be barked at by upwardly mobile instructors at the price of heli training. As it transpired virtually all my instructors were superb and became friends. After a trial lesson in an R22 I was wary of 'R22 phobia' and took advice from airline colleagues who had generally flown rotary with the military or oil companies; needless to say they perpetuated the urban myths surrounding the R22 and were not encouraging. I then decided to do my research thoroughly and naturally found the rotorheads threads very useful with some serious ace contributors to be found here. I eventually felt that the R22 was too risky and plumped to do my training with a Schweizer operator out of Finningley. I loved the S300 and was hovering fairly reasonably within a shortish time. However, the one man band operation @ DSA went bust taking a large amount of my money paid in advance - defying all advice and stupid of me. I then spent some time 'on loan' flying abroad but always felt that I would like to go back and continue what I had started. I decided to take the plunge and retry the R22 @ Kingsfield Helicopters @ Perth in Scotland; I found that my initial training on the S300 was beneficial and I was handling the R22 reasonably well despite the time away. To try to cut a long story short I then spent over 50 hours on the R22 and finally finished the licence @ Sloane in Majorca. Kingsfield were fantastic as were all their instructors: it was just as I reached the end of the course accessing an Examiner plus of course, weather issues in Scotland meant that I could finish the ppl in a week in Palma. The S300 would be my preference over the R22 if you can find one. More stable, the safety features of 3 blades are obvious, speed doesn't really matter in training, and generally easier to fly. The R22, as long as you remain in your comfort zone is a very good helicopter but with limitations that you must be aware of. The nightmare scenario of mast bumping due negative g or excessive turbulence is a factor in not choosing the R22. Finally... I had a ride in a Cabri last year and it is a fantastic helicopter. Easy to handle, much (much!) enhanced safety features and surprisingly, almost as cheap as the R22 in the training context. I am happy that I obtained my licence on the R22 but if I were starting again it would be the Cabri all the way regardless of geographical issues. Hope that helps / rgds.

[Paul Cantrell]

I like the Robbie okay, but I've got some time in Enstroms and they're not bad at all. I think they are the easiest helicopter to autorotate there is. You can pretty much talk a student through a touchdown autorotation on their first lesson.

They're roomy compared to a lot of helicopters, and are built like trucks. They definitely give you a feeling of a solid machine.

They seem to be pretty expensive to operate, but other people will no doubt disagree with me on that!

[KNIEVEL77]

Oldster,
Interesting post.
Cabri does indeed seem to be the preferred choice now!

[cattletruck]

I eventually felt that the R22 was too risky

My first 3 hrs on type were done in gusty conditions, I felt like an Ab-Initio again. My 4th hour in the R22 was in perfect weather conditions, I remember having a bit of fun with the pedal sensitivities while taxying to the helipad for my T/O clearance, so different to the brute force involved during the previous 3 hrs, this time it was like a toy.

Needless to say I flew solo many times in windy conditions that are now no longer recommended for the R22. Tis a shame, because all it takes is good instruction and experience.

I recall a bumpy arrival at YSBK in a JetBanger on a very gusty day and watching someone taxy an R22 with rock solid skills better than I have every seen - it can be done I said to myself.

The Robbi is as handful near its margins, that in itself makes it a great training helicopter when used with experienced instructors. My only criticism is that 20 years on they don't have to build them like that anymore. Modern developments can smooth out the pitfalls, and the Cabri is testimony to that.

[LOZZ]

As the original poster, and having lurked for far more than 18 months this time, thought worth mentioning that after obtaining my PPL(H) on the 22, I am now a part owner of a Clipper II and am a very happy bunny; having explored G2, 120, 206, 206L & 350. As for a career with a 225, next lifetime maybe ;-)

LOZZ.