Proficiency check renewal expired between 3 and 5 years.
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Proficiency check renewal expired between 3 and 5 years.
As I understand how EASA is working in the UK right now, if a type rating is expired by more than 3 years it becomes a "previously held type rating" on a JAR (deemed EASA) or actual EASA licence, and a full type rating course is required to recover this rating.
I am slightly confused by this and wonder if this applies to all type ratings no matter when they were gained or is this just type ratings gained since the implementation date in sept 2012. I am assuming the former, but wonder if the recovery of a type rating gained before EASA, expired by more than 3 years but less than 5 years, is possible with a proficiency check preceded by sufficient training (2 hours minimum under the previous system)?
Comments welcome,
Regards CF
I am slightly confused by this and wonder if this applies to all type ratings no matter when they were gained or is this just type ratings gained since the implementation date in sept 2012. I am assuming the former, but wonder if the recovery of a type rating gained before EASA, expired by more than 3 years but less than 5 years, is possible with a proficiency check preceded by sufficient training (2 hours minimum under the previous system)?
Comments welcome,
Regards CF
The Part-FCL AMC say you should do the entire type rating course again if expired more than 3 years. There's no other provision. BUT the HoT at the ATO (TRTO) may take into account your previous experience etc and recommend a truncated course. Note that the training MUST be done at an ATO and the HoT will have to issue a Course Completion Certificate which must be sent to CAA with application to renew the type rating. AND the CAA will not update your FCL150 type rating validity page in your existing UK or JAR licence: you'll have to apply and pay the fee for a new Part-FCL (or UK National, if it's an Annex II aircraft type) licence.
Simple, really
Simple, really
Last edited by idle stop; 23rd Feb 2013 at 14:51. Reason: typos
I haven't done an LPC for 4 years on the basis of why bother when nearly all my flying is on my faa ticket . For me to now say do a ferry flight in a G reg , I think after October 2014??, I will have to do full type ratings again ..... Even in the types I have done hundreds of hours in during the last year or two
This is plainly daft and once again , I would say , encourages one to bend the rules . Why , logically , should I do the entire rating again when I am current ?
Once again the Campaign Against Aviation , have no regard to safety .... This is more jobs for the boys and fees . You Americans don't know how lucky you are with your lot !!!!
This is plainly daft and once again , I would say , encourages one to bend the rules . Why , logically , should I do the entire rating again when I am current ?
Once again the Campaign Against Aviation , have no regard to safety .... This is more jobs for the boys and fees . You Americans don't know how lucky you are with your lot !!!!
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Thanks Mr Stop for your helpful comments, I did try to read the AMC but from the EASA website was a baffling list of 10-12 documents all with very similar names.
Sounds to me like EASA are trying to kill the Flight training industry a bit.
I currently have expired type ratings (>3 years) on 2 medium twin types and 2 heavier twin types and all will disappear forever with this rule.
It makes it prohibitive for companies and individuals to get themselves back up to speed as far as I can see.
Regards CF
Sounds to me like EASA are trying to kill the Flight training industry a bit.
I currently have expired type ratings (>3 years) on 2 medium twin types and 2 heavier twin types and all will disappear forever with this rule.
It makes it prohibitive for companies and individuals to get themselves back up to speed as far as I can see.
Regards CF
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CF - if you haven't already updated you licence to EASA you can get them current on your JAA License with just an LPC (until April, I believe, when you must have been issued your EASA licence) and they will be put onto the EASA when you renew. Annoyingly if you have already renewed it's probably too late. A rule for Double Bogey to justify... To anyone who has NOT yet renewed. Get all types you want to keep current PRIOR to reissue!
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Anyone now putting a new type on thier JAR licence will HAVE to change to EASA (and pay £130 for the privilege of course) - even if you have many years validity on your existing JAR licence. Anyone who has not seen it will be wondering what the £130 is for as it is a little, cheap, blue piece of plastic with tiny, unreadable print.
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My question is where were the representing bodies, (unions etc) when these licence privileges that we have earned and paid for taken away?
As both a rotary and fixed wing guy I am losing my marketability in the jobs arena and that is simply unfair.
I am afraid that very quickly I have come to the conclusion that EASA is nothing but another nail in the coffin of European aviation!
As both a rotary and fixed wing guy I am losing my marketability in the jobs arena and that is simply unfair.
I am afraid that very quickly I have come to the conclusion that EASA is nothing but another nail in the coffin of European aviation!
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Hi Mr Aucky, thanks for that, but what you are saying is fundamentally different to what Mr Idle Stop is saying 🙇 but I hope it's true!
Is it written down anywhere what you are saying? Because my understanding is that all JAR Licences are deemed to be EASA ones since 7/9/12 and therefore subject to the EASA regime / renewal.
Is it written down anywhere what you are saying? Because my understanding is that all JAR Licences are deemed to be EASA ones since 7/9/12 and therefore subject to the EASA regime / renewal.
NigelH - if you have 100hrs or more on type and currently fly it on another ICAO licence then you only have to do a Proficiency Check (there may be an upper weight limit for the types). Then you pay a fee to get it issued on your EASA licence. I'll try trawl through Part FCL/CAP804 to find the section on this for you but that's like 2000 pages and I don't have trouble sleeping at the moment...! 
CampF - when you apply for an EASA licence ANY non current types (not just those that have expired by more than 3 years) go on the back - which is highly frustrating because it's ANOTHER bloody fee to pay.
EASA licence are valid for life.
CampF - when you apply for an EASA licence ANY non current types (not just those that have expired by more than 3 years) go on the back - which is highly frustrating because it's ANOTHER bloody fee to pay.
EASA licence are valid for life.
Last edited by misterbonkers; 24th Feb 2013 at 09:27.
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Hmmm apologies, I should have checked my dates a little more closely. It may well have been September. For some reason I had April in my mind as a month of relevance too.
In my understanding, it is mandatory to reapply for an EASA licence on your next application for a new type after September 2012, or licence renewal. your JAR license effectively becomes an EASA licence until reissued, and so the relevant parts of Part-FCL apply, so the 3 year limit becomes problematic for you, unfortunately. For anyone else looking to reissue who's ratings are not expired by 3 years or more - be sure to get the types current (within the 3 years) before submission for the EASA licence if you want to avoid the additional costs or reinstating them.
In my understanding, it is mandatory to reapply for an EASA licence on your next application for a new type after September 2012, or licence renewal. your JAR license effectively becomes an EASA licence until reissued, and so the relevant parts of Part-FCL apply, so the 3 year limit becomes problematic for you, unfortunately. For anyone else looking to reissue who's ratings are not expired by 3 years or more - be sure to get the types current (within the 3 years) before submission for the EASA licence if you want to avoid the additional costs or reinstating them.
Last edited by Aucky; 24th Feb 2013 at 10:06.
Mister bonkers ..... So you reckon that if I have flown the helicopters rated on my UK licence regularly over the last 4-5 yrs , but on my FAA ticket , then I am still deemed to be current and just need an LPC ??? Sadly ,knowing the morons that rule aviation in the UK , that is highly unlikely to be correct because it is too logical and sensible !!!!
I do know that having flown my 109 for around 200 hrs now ...I will still have to do 8 hrs of training to put it on my new EASA licence . For anyone flying their own G reg on an FAA ticket they should look at changing it to N reg .
I do know that having flown my 109 for around 200 hrs now ...I will still have to do 8 hrs of training
to put it on my new EASA licence . For anyone flying their own G reg on an FAA ticket they should look at changing it to N reg .
Gifthorse, mouth...
Although if you want it for a 109 you'll need a few more hours... So maybe you should go back to the as350?
The UK 'morons' you refer to don't make the rules no more...
CAP 804, section 2, part Q, subpart 2, page 3;
2 Annex III to Part-FCL
C. ACCEPTANCE OF CLASS AND TYPE RATINGS
(1) A valid class or type rating contained in a licence issued by a third country may be inserted in a Part-FCL licence provided that the applicant:
(a) complies with the experience requirements and the prerequisites for the issue of the applicable type or class rating in accordance with Part-FCL;
(b) passes the relevant skill test for the issue of the applicable type or class rating in accordance with Part-FCL;
(c) is in current flying practice;
Part FCL Annex III states experience requirements as follows;
(iii) for single-engine helicopters with a maximum certificated take-off mass of up to 3 175 kg, 100 hours of flight experience as a pilot in that type;
(iv) for all other helicopters, 350 hours of flight experience as a pilot in that class.
EN L 311/172 Official Journal of the European Union
Although if you want it for a 109 you'll need a few more hours... So maybe you should go back to the as350?
The UK 'morons' you refer to don't make the rules no more...
CAP 804, section 2, part Q, subpart 2, page 3;
2 Annex III to Part-FCL
C. ACCEPTANCE OF CLASS AND TYPE RATINGS
(1) A valid class or type rating contained in a licence issued by a third country may be inserted in a Part-FCL licence provided that the applicant:
(a) complies with the experience requirements and the prerequisites for the issue of the applicable type or class rating in accordance with Part-FCL;
(b) passes the relevant skill test for the issue of the applicable type or class rating in accordance with Part-FCL;
(c) is in current flying practice;
Part FCL Annex III states experience requirements as follows;
(iii) for single-engine helicopters with a maximum certificated take-off mass of up to 3 175 kg, 100 hours of flight experience as a pilot in that type;
(iv) for all other helicopters, 350 hours of flight experience as a pilot in that class.
EN L 311/172 Official Journal of the European Union
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That is a help if you have a rating and time on type on a foreign licence. I however under EASA find myself losing a bizjet rating (3 years out now) that will cost $65,000 to recover not just a few hours on type!
The shifting of goalposts by the relevant authorities when it has such dire consequences for those it affects is, or at least should be criminal!
The shifting of goalposts by the relevant authorities when it has such dire consequences for those it affects is, or at least should be criminal!
Last edited by Kelly Hopper; 25th Feb 2013 at 08:23.
Kelly, not sure about fixed wing rules but in helicopters if you have a ME type rating that has expired by more than three years then you have to redo the whole type rating HOWEVER it's classed as a second ME type rating so you don't have to do the full 8hrs (unless you need the practice). So the minimum hours are reduced.
If I have an expired type rating for a larger type then I'm pretty certain I'm going to need some retraining to get back into practice (and if it's been a while then some ground school wouldn't go a miss either).
I wasn't a big fan of EASA when it came out. There are still issues with it but it's not all as bad as we think. A large part of the issue is that our CAA didn't implement a lot of JAR - this would have made the transition to EASA a lot easier AND perhaps Gatwick's life easier too! Unfortunately Gatwick seem very capable of making us pay every time. What really gnarls me is hearing that there are a number of ex CAA bods now cashing in on all the rule changes that they managed to make so complicated - consultants. The industry wouldn't need their expertise if the rules had stayed where they were so not a bad pension plan eh?
Perhaps all us pilots should fly the longest route every time - then they'd need to employ more of us to cover the routes...
If I have an expired type rating for a larger type then I'm pretty certain I'm going to need some retraining to get back into practice (and if it's been a while then some ground school wouldn't go a miss either).
I wasn't a big fan of EASA when it came out. There are still issues with it but it's not all as bad as we think. A large part of the issue is that our CAA didn't implement a lot of JAR - this would have made the transition to EASA a lot easier AND perhaps Gatwick's life easier too! Unfortunately Gatwick seem very capable of making us pay every time. What really gnarls me is hearing that there are a number of ex CAA bods now cashing in on all the rule changes that they managed to make so complicated - consultants. The industry wouldn't need their expertise if the rules had stayed where they were so not a bad pension plan eh?
Perhaps all us pilots should fly the longest route every time - then they'd need to employ more of us to cover the routes...
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Thanks for the input Bonkers!
Yes the rules for F/W and R/W are quite different.
After 3 years now, previously 5, I have to do the entire F/W rating again. A whole month of sim and school. At massive cost!
The previously mentioned foreign licence idea is the way to go. Get it on my FAA ticket and then no matter how "out" you are only a pass in the LPC is required. That has to be the plan now.
It is crazy however that I have to use another authority's licensing requirements to maintain my status in EU land because a penpusher pushed me out!
Yes the rules for F/W and R/W are quite different.
After 3 years now, previously 5, I have to do the entire F/W rating again. A whole month of sim and school. At massive cost!
The previously mentioned foreign licence idea is the way to go. Get it on my FAA ticket and then no matter how "out" you are only a pass in the LPC is required. That has to be the plan now.
It is crazy however that I have to use another authority's licensing requirements to maintain my status in EU land because a penpusher pushed me out!
Kelly, I agree with you entirely! Interesting that the UK CAA aren't keen to post the idea in CAP 804 either but it's written in PART FCL in dark grey and white! I'm going FAA for the same reason. Good luck!
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For most regulators it is a standard requirement that they prepare a Regulatory Impact Assessment of their proposed new regulations. Does anyone know why EASA seem to be entirely exempt from this process?
The value in such a process is twofold:
- Interested "stakeholders" can see what level of assessment has been done by the regulator and, in the regulator's view, what the effect of a regulation would be.
- It also has the very beneficial effect of reminding the regulator that there is a balance to be struck, that the idea is to achieve higher levels of safety whilst minimising unnecessary cost.
EASA seems to be free to run riot without any of these normal constraints.
The value in such a process is twofold:
- Interested "stakeholders" can see what level of assessment has been done by the regulator and, in the regulator's view, what the effect of a regulation would be.
- It also has the very beneficial effect of reminding the regulator that there is a balance to be struck, that the idea is to achieve higher levels of safety whilst minimising unnecessary cost.
EASA seems to be free to run riot without any of these normal constraints.
OK Mr Bonkers ...they are not UK morons but EU morons 
If I continue to fly the 109 and say next year have 350 hrs ....then will I have to do the full course if its a first twin on my licence or will I still be able to do abbreviated one ? It does appear that using an FAA ticket is the way , as you can get current again without any training needed and then convert .
Thanks for your help .
If I continue to fly the 109 and say next year have 350 hrs ....then will I have to do the full course if its a first twin on my licence or will I still be able to do abbreviated one ? It does appear that using an FAA ticket is the way , as you can get current again without any training needed and then convert .
Thanks for your help .
Just get 350hrs on type and all you have to do is a licence skills test.
The rules I posted above are for any type not just expired ones or previously held ones.
Note you have to be current on the type you are doing this with I.e have 2hrs in 12 months on type flying on the icao licence from which you are transferring the priveledge. Easy peasy! It's all there written for you. Cap 804 and part FCL are free to download. I'm just gutted I never managed to reach 350hrs on the as365 - looks like that will be long lost now
The rules I posted above are for any type not just expired ones or previously held ones.
Note you have to be current on the type you are doing this with I.e have 2hrs in 12 months on type flying on the icao licence from which you are transferring the priveledge. Easy peasy! It's all there written for you. Cap 804 and part FCL are free to download. I'm just gutted I never managed to reach 350hrs on the as365 - looks like that will be long lost now
HILARIOUS 
After 25 mins waiting on the telephone to the CAA licensing dept I got a very nice girl ..... ( they obviously know how irritating they are as they say while you are waiting that they will not allow any abuse or verbal attacks on their staff !!!!)
Anyway , I ask about renewing my ratings after a lapse ....but whilst still flying and being current on my faa etc etc . She goes on hold for 10 minutes and comes back with Part 4 section x etc etc on their website . I explain that I need a steer from them as to what is required ... She says they cannot tell me what I need to do ....it is up to me to interpret it. She then says she spoke to another expert there ...I ask " what was his view ? Do I just need an LPC or full type rating training all over again ? ". She says " I can't tell you . He just says its up to you to decide ".
I point out , very politely , that she has been as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle and say goodbye .
You really couldn't make it up .
After 25 mins waiting on the telephone to the CAA licensing dept I got a very nice girl ..... ( they obviously know how irritating they are as they say while you are waiting that they will not allow any abuse or verbal attacks on their staff !!!!)
Anyway , I ask about renewing my ratings after a lapse ....but whilst still flying and being current on my faa etc etc . She goes on hold for 10 minutes and comes back with Part 4 section x etc etc on their website . I explain that I need a steer from them as to what is required ... She says they cannot tell me what I need to do ....it is up to me to interpret it
. She then says she spoke to another expert there ...I ask " what was his view ? Do I just need an LPC or full type rating training all over again ? ". She says " I can't tell you . He just says its up to you to decide ".I point out , very politely , that she has been as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle and say goodbye .
You really couldn't make it up .