New money - new tricks

[Thomas coupling]

This is merely a muse, but is it the heightened frequency of reporting by the media or is there something going on with people who have buckets of money and who fly helicopters:
The Harrogate crash.
The Mark Weir crash.
J Paxman and his Millionaire's flying club.
The Scottish rallye driver crash. [Colin McCrae].

And others.

Does 'new' money instil some kind of superiority culture amongst the recipients? I observe that the majority of 'new' money - actually physically fly their toy, whereas 'old' money get "plebs" to fly their toy(s) for them!
[Perhaps new money think existing rules don't apply to them as they have now passed that stage in their lives], or is it simply, juicy news ammunition when things go wrong (or are about to go wrong)?

[Pittsextra]

Interesting topic to debate.

I would think with regard to private individuals being able to self fund their flying you will always find an over confidence because lets face it that confidence has probably served them well in other aspects of life. I don't think that is new - after all Douglas Bader shunted for the same reasons!

I also think that other factors can be at play. After all it is easy for under paid professionals to gravitate towards people with the obvious means to either allow them to do more flying or generate an income beyond what they enjoy.

That matey-ness then might extend to not piping up when things are getting lairy.

[nigelh]

Dear TC . We have so far established you are 5'9" ........so short arse .
You are also a self proclaimed expert on all things helicopter .... So smart arse
You also appear to have a problem with people being successful .... So therefore we have got as far as short , chippy , smart arse
I actually do both ... I fly my own helicopters and wherever possible give other pilots the chance to fly for me . But to my knowledge I have never employed a "pleb " !!!!!! Maybe you would like an interview and you may be my first
The old debate about rich twits flying skills versus moustached military vets has been done to death surely ??? Of course as a generalisation, professional pilots and ex mil ones will have better skills and should also have better decision making skills , having flown under the eye of very experienced instructors . Being rich does not give you any more or less ability than anyone else !! But it does make a better story ...

[Al-bert]

Does 'new' money instil some kind of superiority culture amongst the recipients?

certainly does in the marine leisure world TC. At least flying toys demand some form of training and licencing before the arrogant fools are let loose in them (although as Harrogate revealed, fools can be so ingenious).

[Thomas coupling]

Oooh, Nigeh, touched a raw nerve in there somewhere have we. Mil pilot comparisons - where did that come from my lovely?
Being a yorkshire boy - you don't have to worry about feeling superior to anyone nige
Keep up the good work though

[Shawn Coyle]

One of the more successful helicopter sales company made good work from selling to high-end sports car owners, on the basis that they could afford to buy a helicopter (as opposed to the aviation crowd, which couldn't). Things went well until they discovered that the sports car owners didn't take kindly to instruction! The owners figured they already knew how to handle machinery, and didn't need to be told by someone else what they needed to do.

[ShyTorque]

I think there are certain character traits that make good, successful businessmen. Unfortunately, some of those traits don't mix well with aviation and with helicopters in particular.

If I was a better businessman, with my attention fully on making money, I would be sitting in the back.

If my corporate passengers were better pilots than me, with their attention fully on aviation, they would probably be sitting in the front.

As it is, it's probably safer the way things are.

[Hughes500]

Well lets take a bit of time and ask a few questions on each one

The Harrogate crash. So which ex mil pilot falsified everything ?

The Mark Weir crash. Was he that wealthy, having put all money into a business probably not, a risk taker without doubt

J Paxman and his Millionaire's flying club. J Paxman doesnt fly helicopters, J Paxton does, attention to detail. Must be a **** pilot with no decision making ability as he is wealthy TC obviously time to retire or get some new glasses. Sad world when someone tries to do some good with their money and gets slagged by someone who has never met or spoken to that person.

The Scottish rallye driver crash. [Colin McCrae]. What did he do as a job, pushed mechnical things to the limit, anything to do with being wealthy probably not but In his nature.


The only correlation is that wealthy people can afford to buy helicopters, fast cars, fast women, wow no surprises there then. Perhaps i am wrong another correlation, the rich and famous are the envy of the average person and the general population has a very voyeur view so yes they are in the press more
TC how many Mil/para mil helicopters come down with pilots doing stupid things.
Mil 350 crash in North Devon - hit low level wires ( 30 ft high)
Mil 341 in Wye valley hit wires by flying too low
Devon Air ambulance TR strike backing into a tree
355 NI police crashes on hill side investigating 109 crash.

All " professional Pilots" doing stupid things is there a correlation there, i am a pro pilot so I must be good at this ??????

The bigger correlation is the things most people love to do have bigger risks attached and helicopters in principle take no prisoners when pushed to their limit or the limit of the pilot

[Camp Freddie]

In my experience these sort of guys (succesful businessmen typically in their 40's) generally start of doing their PPL ok and typically treat the instructor with sufficient respect but as their skills improve they gradually start to treat you like one of their employees, and by the time they have the licence they often treat you like some sort of paid serf with nothing to offer them.

They are generally nice guys but could also be described as "pushy sods" and often seem to lack the natural conservatism present in good PPL's from other backgrounds. And the gazelle seems to attract people with this profile.

Not saying all this is true, just my experience

[md 600 driver]

Camp Freddie

That's me outed then

[Helinut]

I recall that in the USA flying schools, there was reputed to be a recognised "syndrome" widely found amongst the US medical profession who flew, similar to the one that TC suggests. In the US doctors, being private, are much richer than the average UK equivalent, and prone to "pushing the odds" in how they operate apparently.

Same issue, I suspect. I think there is probably more to it than just being rich. Being used to getting your own way can become a habitual expectation. You may well be able to push plebs around, but don't f**k with the weather.

I wonder if the "authorities" will ever get around to addressing CRM for private pilots. I am generally not inclined to even more regulation, but if we could do something to stop serviceable helicopters being crashed it would not half affect insurance rates.

The counter argument might be that CRM has done little or nothing to improve accident rates in non-private flying. Does anyone know whether there is any evidence to suggest that CRM has had a measurable benefit anywhere?

My anecdotal experience is that CRM training seems to reinforce existing good attitudes, but has little impact on "risk taking cowboys" who just seem to endure the training and then go back the way they were.

[Thomas coupling]

Hughes 500, I was hoping you wouldn't jump in with both feet, but alas.....
You aren't listening are you (as usual).
Firstly, as I said at the beginning - I'm only 'musing' (check it out), it's simply and only a passing thought. There's no psychological/genetic connotation here, OK.
Secondly, this isn't a scientific research paper I am writing. Of course, dozens of very wealthy people fly very very responsibly. BUT, here's the rub:

When accidents in the helo world happen, people like us (especially) rip into it in our inimitable fashion and come to this conclusion and that conclusion. However, the bottom line is this:
Your military accident examples all have the following in common. The pilots that caused the crash (human error input), were (a) working when they crashed, (b) weren't messing about and (c) made genuine mistakes that you or I could easily have made given the right circumstances.

Whereas my examples were of individuals who (a) were flying for social reasons, (b) were messing about at the time of the accident and (c) made a fatal mistake based on their attitudes/human traits.
[Of course your mate Paxman is alive and kicking (and long may it last) but he definitely exhibits the human factors that could ever so easily make him a full member of my list with his take on his commercial attributes].

None of those dead mil pilots (and I didn't really want a mil Vs civvy argument, to be honest, even though you or Nigeh can't resist), would ever be capable of joining my original list because they don't exhibit those human factor traits that these "rich" people portray(ed).

Now - IF a mil pilot gets rich quick (and there are loads of those schemes available ). Is it possible I am asking - for them, then, to change their persona, like Shawn and Camp Freddie mentioned - and become statistics too? Simples.
So calm down, take a deep breath and rethink your answer.

Very interesting observations from two very experienced guys - don't you think.

It may just be that something happens to a human being when they have loads and loads of dosh. SOME (read that slowly nigeh/hughesy), SOME go onto exhibit delusions of self adoration where they actually detach themselves from the rest of mankind and elevate themselves to god. And this doesn't only happen in the helo world, I am certain it happens whenever some of us bump into some millionaires - they think that because they are rich hauliers for example, that they are experts in all other areas.

It seems not.

EG: Was Nigeh always cantankerous/arrogant/obnoxious - probably not, when he was (un)wealthy. But now that he is wealthy, he probably thinks he's perfect

[misterbonkers]

My hand grenade;

How about the pilots TC mentioned were taught by people who were taught by people who were taught by people who were ex military. In the military there are two types of pilots;

a) The rule following by-the-bookers

and;

b) The kind that might actually win a war because they don't like rules (lets face it - some of the greatest military accomplishments were won by going against the grain). Some of these guys become very experienced pilots and might even end up flying for 8-reg.

The military needs both types, as does life in general - including civvy street. It generally leads to 'success' (such as becoming very rich) or finding a cure for cancer!

So two people gel in a cockpit. Both don't like rules. Unfortunately, until your bag of experience is full, your bag of luck and 'the rules and standards' is all you have.

If your instructor or the people who influence your flying (such as more experienced but equally wreckless PPLs) aren't a big fan of rules then you just have your bag of luck until you gain experience.

We've all made mistakes. Some of us have been lucky, some of us have used experience to get us out of the predicament (or avoid it altogether!).

You will never know any better than what you are taught and see others doing habitually. So really, as an industry we have a DUTY to ensure high standards AT ALL TIMES and not be tempted to complacent in our relationships towards those we fly with as students or instructors - this is what the CAA are trying to achieve - they just perhaps don't go about it the right way at times!

Helinut - CRM is now starting to be introduced on the PCs. It should prove useful but sadly it's a new concept to a lot of FEs so it will take sometime to kick in. I try and transfer CRM skills on every Proficiency Check as I'm fortunate to be exposed to it on a daily basis at work.

And people are people. John Smith, 42, wife, 5 kids, low income is unlikely to fly helicopters. So you won't hear much about him crashing and dying. Accident safety rate seems relatively level at the moment.

(perhaps the above is more like a frag grenade)

[Pittsextra]

In the end its not rocket science. Aviation in general has lots of rules/regulations but you quickly come to realise that actually if you want to do XYZ then there are few barriers pre-event.

All of this poor airmanship is after the event. In fact the instructor that may go to prison his errors only came to light after the AAIB pick his action out of the bits of Gazelle strewn across the fields. You could argue that had the CAA looked at this arrangement more closely then the Examiner that was also caught up in this tale might have raised red flags before the pilot had even started his training?

The devil may care attitude is within many - just so happens people with private money fly helicopters because they are very practical bits of kit. The reason helicopters keep ending scattered across the countryside is because from day 1 people feel able to push on beyond what is reasonable because they (the pilots/instructors) always feel they have a greater margin than any fixed wing pilot would feel happy with.

Edited to add:- People like Colin shunted because he just didn't even think it was going to happen to him (but then people smoke cigarettes and think the same?). The get out of jail card had always been with him in rallying and when you shunt very hard as he had done you just never think you can end your life that way. very much and "oh it will be all right" attitude and hence the lack of interest in keeping paperwork etc in order.

His was a terrible accident and very stupid think to pile in the way he did. But who is policing this stuff - he was dicking around in his helicopter for years and who questions it? Certainly not his regular mates as they are of an opinion thats is good sport.

[krypton_john]

ShyTorque nailed it. Successful entrepreneurs and race drivers are risk takers by nature. They will be more susceptible to gethomeitis than risk averse types.

If you want to pick a safe helicopter pilot from one of the professions go with one of the dull types like accountants!

Cheers
JohnO

[paco]

"The counter argument might be that CRM has done little or nothing to improve accident rates in non-private flying. Does anyone know whether there is any evidence to suggest that CRM has had a measurable benefit anywhere?"

Over the last 20 years, accidents related to human factors have reduced by around 40%. I believe that was from the Flight Safety Foundation.

When I was a TRE I refused to test private owners unless they had a certain degree of humility. The big problem with them (and you don't have to be rich, necessarily) is impatience. I have found that that is the first sign of anger.

phil

[John R81]

The comparison here is nonsensical. Will professional (anything) be better ablethan amateurs, even gifted one? – Usually, Yes. The amount of time spent “doing” is greater. An amateur flying “a lot” might get 30 hrs ayear and though a small number will get more, many will fly less than this;professional pilots rack-up vastly more hours. Practice is one of the morevaluable elements of building skills. Amateurs – self funded, buying /operating their own helicopter – necessarily come to helicopter flying later inlife because they have to earn the money first; most professional pilots begintheir flying careers much earlier.
So in looking at “rich types” for behavioural traits you can’tmake a comparison with commercial pilots (rich or not), only with “poor types”because there are significant variables that you cannot account for in thatsample base.

Unfortunately, the cost of helicopter flying / ownershiplargely rules out the idea that we have a pool of “not rich” amateur pilots onwhich to base observations. So the ideal comparison – rich v poor amateur withsimilar time waggling the stick – is not available in the helicopter world.

That pool of “talent” is available in the plank driverworld, as the cost of ownership / opportunities for group flying give greater access to less-rich folk. I don’t see the evidence in theAAIB reports (which I read in full each month) to back up the propositionopening this thread.

Not scientifically valuable - for the reasons above - I also see evidence ofarrogant decisions and risk taking in both amateur and professional pilots insmall GA aircraft, and worryingly occasionally evidence of this in big tin wherethe design of systems and CRM is supposed to eliminate risk.

The only evidence available is therefore that there arepeople who will bend (some of) the rules because they think know better. Those peoplecan sometimes get away with their actions but in aviation the tolerance for error is low,helicopters it is even lower. In aviation the penalty for error is often vastly disproportionate to the "crime".

[nigelh]

John R81 ... I agree . I think TC has let his chippy side ruin a half decent point . Some , so called , wealthy people come into helicopters at an early age with a genuine enthusiasm for flying , whether for fun or work . I , like some others here , started my flying when I was young ( yes TC .... Pre arrogance etc etc !!) with an intention to be a professional pilot . I was lucky to fly professionally with some very good mentors in my early days . If I got too big for my boots ...iwas very quickly put in my place and sent off to sweep the hangar floor / do fuelling / clean helicopters etc I do think there is a reasonable point that middle aged successful men are probably getting into flying because they can , they have the money to do it . It was never a lifetime ambition or vocation otherwise they would have done it sooner . After years of being hands on , in control ....they have to change their mindset to being a student , maybe even being humble and prepared to listen to others . The combination of age and probably also a degree of arrogance , makes them more likely to not be good students and believe they can do it alone .
I know some excellent young pilots who are enormously privileged / wealthy but still make very good pilots and are always wanting to learn from their elders .
Ps . I have to agree re marine . You only have to go to a marina and watch the manoeuvres of some of the new plastic gin palaces to see what I mean .

[Non-PC Plod]

It is unfortunately the case that you will never prove a measurable benefit from CRM training. You would have to run 2 identical operations for 30 years, one with and one without CRM training, and measure the accident/incident rates over the time period. Even then, of course you are not going to get a statistically significant result.
You could say exactly the same about proving the benefits of regular maintenance, or checking the quality of fuel.
However, we all know that the vast majority of accidents and incidents have a human factors component, and we will not significantly reduce accident rates unless we attempt to address potential weaknesses in this area.
My job puts me in the position of seeing a vast cross section of pilots from all parts of the world, who operate in military, paramilitary and civilian environments. Some give me a real impression of professionalism, confidence, and capability. Some (actually many) are excruciatingly, scarily, awful. I am talking supposedly experienced pilots who are on the cusp of crashing for much of the time!
The difference? Their situational awareness, decision-making, communication, SOPs (or lack of them). All the major elements of CRM.
It is easy to see who has been fully immersed in the principles of CRM (or captaincy, MCC etc, whatever you want to call it) whether they realise it or not, and it is as plain as the nose on your face that it makes a huge difference. If CRM training reinforces positive behaviours but leaves negative behaviours untouched, then CRM assessment as part of a line check should identify this, and some sort of remedial action should be taken (even if this means grounding someone for being a liability)

[John R81]

I think that if you are so-called rich and come into commercial helicopter at a young age then it is very likely that this is “old money” to you. You did not carve-out a successful career first, then buy ahelicopter and learn to fly. My own daughter fits this description, and she has the vocation, the will to learn,etc, and so I hope she becomes a really good and safe pilot.

My point is simply that you will find in some people a frame of mind that they can push things a little further than the rules, or good airmanship, would either allow or suggest is sensible. I picked 3 AAIB examples where the actions of commercial pilots led to accident, or the actions post accident might be considered to flout good airmanship; examples that I suspect would be used to support the original proposition if only they had concerned private pilots.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/november_2008/as355f2_twin_squirrel__g_bypa.cfm
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/dft_avsafety_pdf_501020.pdf
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Eurocopter%20AS350B2%20Squirrel,%20G-BXGA%2004-06.pdf

In the commercial world one would hope that a pilot with “bad attitude”, a risk taker”, would be weeded out by the simple expedient of (a) losing their job and (b) becoming unemployable (if you read the reports linked above one guy did lose his job). The CRM elements Non-PC Plod mentions, for example, will help train / change attitudes. For Private pilots there is, so far as I am aware, no equivalent “attitude” test for an owner pilot, only possibly for someone who needs to rent and the club / owner can then refuse to make the aircraft available. So provided that the annual proficiency check is passed an owner pilot can develop bad practices in terms of handling, weather acceptance and navigation choices and by “getting away with it” perhaps continues to push the envelope a little further each time until it all goes wrong, never knowing how close to crashing they had been on each flight.

Personal bit:
I recognise that I am myself in that owner /pilot category. The only defence that I have to skill degradation is to fly regularly with instructors to practice handling skills, and when I fly with commercial pilots (of any kind) to make sure that they know that I positively want then to comment on anything that they think I could improve (planning, flight performance, etc) and use the skills of more experienced pilots to introduce me to situations (often weather related) that are just outside my current capability limit.That way when I fly alone – like yesterday (with low cloud, poor visibility) –my decision making is more attuned to following both the law and the principlesof good airmanship. Yesterday, “press-on-itis” did not prevail and my journey was abandoned due to low cloud base – RTB. On the way back I heard the police helicopter on frequency having trouble routing the same way. Eventually he found his waythrough - as I heard him ask for the relevant radio frequency change. In no way did that make me feel that I had failed or that I should go back and have another go. I had come as close to my personal limits as I was prepared to go (not reached the line, still inside). I parked the machine, made a call to advise that I would not be comingand made other arrangements to replace the planned trip.