HEC - Without Class
Devils advocate...
But it's ok to dangle someone on a winch in conditions where an OEI safe fly away can't always be made? Just because that's saving life? Risking one (or several for another?
These power lines are in the middle of nowhere and need maintenance/inspection work. Other methods including a twin are clearly more expensive/intensive. This squeezes margin so you will lose both investors/business but also risk pushing up prices. So an Elderly person then dies because they can't afford heating or a chap commits suicide because he can't pay his bills and look after his family.
Whatever the outcome the world really needs to learn that there is always going to be some kind of attrition. BUT we shouldn't get complacent about it.
We may have saved that power line worker from death by implementing new rules but what if he loved his job and had then been forced to stop? So he gets an office job instead - what is the risk of him getting run over very morning crossing the road? Would the risk be greater if he was going to work and he didn't enjoy his job? Would his mind he elsewhere crossing the road?
There was an article that showed under JAR helicopter accident rates hadn't changed much at all.
We need to be mindful of risk and minimise it but we can't ever take it away AND live in an effective world.
Oh - and stricter maintenance might be offered as a solution but it's always straight after maintenance that I seem to end up with aircraft issues/snags/faults! The most important check A/walk round is the one after maintenance inspection.
But it's ok to dangle someone on a winch in conditions where an OEI safe fly away can't always be made? Just because that's saving life? Risking one (or several for another?
These power lines are in the middle of nowhere and need maintenance/inspection work. Other methods including a twin are clearly more expensive/intensive. This squeezes margin so you will lose both investors/business but also risk pushing up prices. So an Elderly person then dies because they can't afford heating or a chap commits suicide because he can't pay his bills and look after his family.
Whatever the outcome the world really needs to learn that there is always going to be some kind of attrition. BUT we shouldn't get complacent about it.
We may have saved that power line worker from death by implementing new rules but what if he loved his job and had then been forced to stop? So he gets an office job instead - what is the risk of him getting run over very morning crossing the road? Would the risk be greater if he was going to work and he didn't enjoy his job? Would his mind he elsewhere crossing the road?
There was an article that showed under JAR helicopter accident rates hadn't changed much at all.
We need to be mindful of risk and minimise it but we can't ever take it away AND live in an effective world.
Oh - and stricter maintenance might be offered as a solution but it's always straight after maintenance that I seem to end up with aircraft issues/snags/faults! The most important check A/walk round is the one after maintenance inspection.
Last edited by misterbonkers; 2nd Dec 2012 at 11:05.
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Please excuse my ignorance in this industry, but wouldn't it be easy/cheap to dangle or tether a lightweight collapsible structure (Styrofoam blocks) say 10 feet under the chair of the line operator to offer something softer to land on from a fall of less than 100ft. I assume they only operate in low wind conditions.
Just an observation being I have no dog in this fight but most FAA regulation changes are written in blood. Get enough blood and the status quo is changed.
The frequency of the utility incidents seems low so business as usual.
The frequency of the utility incidents seems low so business as usual.
Misterbonkers - normally the winchman will have a flyaway option or will be on or close to the ground such that the cable can be cut if an emergency occurs.
It is very unusual for a situation to occur when any failure will result in certain death for the winchman - but that is what you are subjecting the power-line worker to every time.
Apparently we value life in civilised society, something that doesn't happen in many parts of the world, so someone has to regulate and prevent people being exploited for the sake of a few dollars.
The sort of thing I might expect to see in India isn't what I would expect to see in the USA.
It is very unusual for a situation to occur when any failure will result in certain death for the winchman - but that is what you are subjecting the power-line worker to every time.
Apparently we value life in civilised society, something that doesn't happen in many parts of the world, so someone has to regulate and prevent people being exploited for the sake of a few dollars.
The sort of thing I might expect to see in India isn't what I would expect to see in the USA.
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Everything we do is based on dollars Crab. How come you even fly at all in the north sea, wouldn't boats be safer?
If you know anything about safety you would know James Reason himself says ASSIB. As safe as possible... and still stay in buisiness. No contractor could operate a twin for powerline work in the US and stay in business. Companies have tried it, the went under or sold the twin. Its not a few more dollars in the first place. For a twin with single engine fly away you are talking 3-4 times as much money, and since we are talking crews that are working out of hotels, now you have a 5-6 man crew on the road to support the thing instead of 2. Dont forget we have over 4,000 power companies in the US, and only 2 are government run. We have 5 million miles of powerlines most of which are 60-80 years old. If a power company was planning on using a 500 to do a years worth of insulator replacement on one of these 70 year old lines (lets say about 2 million dollars worth) do you think they are going to entertain a bid for 6-7 million on the same job because the contractor is going to use a 212 or 355NP to do the same work? They already have to get apprroval form the public utilities commission to roll 2 million in the electricity rates, if they asked for 6-7 mil instead the rate payers would protest and the request would likely not go through. The PUC would ask to see competing bids and take the lowest one...
Crab. you are full of crap on your "every time" statement, my stats above prove that.
I guarentee there are dozens of single point failures on whatever bird you fly as well. At the rate you brits have been dropping pumas into the pond the past few years I wager you'd be better off toteing the rig hands out to work on a longline in a 500.
Single point failures exist in any machine, the solutions are either:
Develop a redundant system where practical,
Make the single point failure rare enough to accept the risk.
Engine failures on allison-250s properly maintained are 1:1.5million flying hours. That is plenty rare. Thats half a century for our industry. The key there is properly maintained, which most of the engine failures our indusrty has had turned out not to be.
The methodology isn't the problem, the problem is the problem.
If you know anything about safety you would know James Reason himself says ASSIB. As safe as possible... and still stay in buisiness. No contractor could operate a twin for powerline work in the US and stay in business. Companies have tried it, the went under or sold the twin. Its not a few more dollars in the first place. For a twin with single engine fly away you are talking 3-4 times as much money, and since we are talking crews that are working out of hotels, now you have a 5-6 man crew on the road to support the thing instead of 2. Dont forget we have over 4,000 power companies in the US, and only 2 are government run. We have 5 million miles of powerlines most of which are 60-80 years old. If a power company was planning on using a 500 to do a years worth of insulator replacement on one of these 70 year old lines (lets say about 2 million dollars worth) do you think they are going to entertain a bid for 6-7 million on the same job because the contractor is going to use a 212 or 355NP to do the same work? They already have to get apprroval form the public utilities commission to roll 2 million in the electricity rates, if they asked for 6-7 mil instead the rate payers would protest and the request would likely not go through. The PUC would ask to see competing bids and take the lowest one...
Crab. you are full of crap on your "every time" statement, my stats above prove that.
I guarentee there are dozens of single point failures on whatever bird you fly as well. At the rate you brits have been dropping pumas into the pond the past few years I wager you'd be better off toteing the rig hands out to work on a longline in a 500.
Single point failures exist in any machine, the solutions are either:
Develop a redundant system where practical,
Make the single point failure rare enough to accept the risk.
Engine failures on allison-250s properly maintained are 1:1.5million flying hours. That is plenty rare. Thats half a century for our industry. The key there is properly maintained, which most of the engine failures our indusrty has had turned out not to be.
The methodology isn't the problem, the problem is the problem.
Last edited by 500guy; 3rd Dec 2012 at 15:19.
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500 Guy - your suggestion that we should be toting guys out to the oil rigs on the North Sea on a line under a SEH is just ridiculous!!!!
Its far to cold for them to hang on for that long!!!
Its far to cold for them to hang on for that long!!!
Crab. you are full of crap on your "every time" statement, my stats above prove that.
Would you be happy hanging under a single - ie putting your money where your mouth is?
What company insurance is there for those guys when it does go wrong to protect their families?
Your attitude to the US power business tells me that it is an archaic system long overdue an overhaul but in a country where the power of the dollar leads everything I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.
Boats in the North Sea...... have you seen the sea state they get there? All the workers would arrive unfit to work and then face the problem of how to get from the boat to the rig - well done for your incisive opinion
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That risk is there and only slightly less in a twin.
I have done HEC under a single numerous times and would happily do more of it.
Everyone in our company gets a company paid life insurance policy, I'm sure the other companies that do this work do also.
Yes, the system is archaic, but it's the system he have.
I agree on the sea state issue but if safety is litterally the only thing that matters as you indicated before none of that matters.
I have done HEC under a single numerous times and would happily do more of it.
Everyone in our company gets a company paid life insurance policy, I'm sure the other companies that do this work do also.
Yes, the system is archaic, but it's the system he have.
I agree on the sea state issue but if safety is litterally the only thing that matters as you indicated before none of that matters.
I have done HEC under a single numerous times and would happily do more of it.
A news in connection with the topic :
National Grid Electricity Transmission Plc. has purchased the first Bell 429 to be operated in Great Britain. The aircraft will be used for inspection and maintenance of power lines.
Bell Helicopter to deliver first Bell 429 to United Kingdom | Vertical - Helicopter News
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National Grid Electricity Transmission Plc. has purchased the first Bell 429 to be operated in Great Britain. The aircraft will be used for inspection and maintenance of power lines.
Bell Helicopter to deliver first Bell 429 to United Kingdom | Vertical - Helicopter News
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Maybe it just shows the difference in perceived risk between different countries and different people. If we all thought the same life would be so boring.
Personally I've been slung beneath an ex military Restricted Category UH1, and i would happily do it again. I knew the helicopter, pilot, engineers, and had faith in them.
there are some civil helicopters around that i wouldn't fly in, both single and twins, because i know the helicopter, pilots, previous pilots, engineers, etc.
I also wouldn't hop onto a 225 and chug off into the north sea at the moment, but would happily swing beneath certain helicopters, single or twin.
If winching is so super safe, what is the procedure when those AS350's that are winching in Europe have an engine go funny? Maybe all of Europe isn't thinking the same as Britain.
And regarding slinging the rig workers, all the ones i know tell me how hard they are, so they would go out without the immersion suit, and just hang on. ;-)
Personally I've been slung beneath an ex military Restricted Category UH1, and i would happily do it again. I knew the helicopter, pilot, engineers, and had faith in them.
there are some civil helicopters around that i wouldn't fly in, both single and twins, because i know the helicopter, pilots, previous pilots, engineers, etc.
I also wouldn't hop onto a 225 and chug off into the north sea at the moment, but would happily swing beneath certain helicopters, single or twin.
If winching is so super safe, what is the procedure when those AS350's that are winching in Europe have an engine go funny? Maybe all of Europe isn't thinking the same as Britain.
And regarding slinging the rig workers, all the ones i know tell me how hard they are, so they would go out without the immersion suit, and just hang on. ;-)
1. A helicopter crash that killed a four-member Coast Guard aircrew last year was caused when a tangled rescue hoist snapped and damaged the rotor blades, according to a report released Friday.
The aircrew managed to right the helicopter but did not realize that the helicopter was too damaged to return to land the night of Sept. 4, 2008, according to investigators.
The Dolphin HH-65 crashed into the Pacific Ocean six miles south of Honolulu International Airport. The service members killed that night were Cmdr. Thomas Nelson, Lt. Cmdr. Andrew Wischmeier, Aviation Survival Technician 1st Class David Skimin and Aviation Maintenance Technician 1st Class Joshua Nichols. Nelson, the pilot, was the executive officer at Coast Guard Air Station Barbers Point.
2. The Australian Transport Safety Bureau released a final investigative report regarding the November 9, 2009 hoisting accident. This accident seriously injured two crew members, when the hoist cable failed and they fell approximately 50 ft (16 m) onto deck of the ship. The event occurred when a Bell 412 operated by Torres Strait Ambulance rendezvoused with a container ship (Maersk Duffield) to evacuate an ill crew member.
3. A police rescuer fell five-six feet (1.5-2 m) during a January 2011 helicopter short-haul extraction. The Incident occurred during a body recovery operation being conducted by the South African Police with a BO-105 helicopter. This mechanical “uncommanded jettison” was caused by the pilot’s cargo hook foot release not automatically returning to the locked position. This mechanism requires that it be manually reset.
I know your heart is in the right place Crab, but no matter what we do accidents will happen no matter what equipment you are using. Operating twins did nothing to help these guys. Might I also add that your yank bashing attitude gets a little tiresome after a while.
The aircrew managed to right the helicopter but did not realize that the helicopter was too damaged to return to land the night of Sept. 4, 2008, according to investigators.
The Dolphin HH-65 crashed into the Pacific Ocean six miles south of Honolulu International Airport. The service members killed that night were Cmdr. Thomas Nelson, Lt. Cmdr. Andrew Wischmeier, Aviation Survival Technician 1st Class David Skimin and Aviation Maintenance Technician 1st Class Joshua Nichols. Nelson, the pilot, was the executive officer at Coast Guard Air Station Barbers Point.
2. The Australian Transport Safety Bureau released a final investigative report regarding the November 9, 2009 hoisting accident. This accident seriously injured two crew members, when the hoist cable failed and they fell approximately 50 ft (16 m) onto deck of the ship. The event occurred when a Bell 412 operated by Torres Strait Ambulance rendezvoused with a container ship (Maersk Duffield) to evacuate an ill crew member.
3. A police rescuer fell five-six feet (1.5-2 m) during a January 2011 helicopter short-haul extraction. The Incident occurred during a body recovery operation being conducted by the South African Police with a BO-105 helicopter. This mechanical “uncommanded jettison” was caused by the pilot’s cargo hook foot release not automatically returning to the locked position. This mechanism requires that it be manually reset.
I know your heart is in the right place Crab, but no matter what we do accidents will happen no matter what equipment you are using. Operating twins did nothing to help these guys. Might I also add that your yank bashing attitude gets a little tiresome after a while.
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Good points
While all the above are good information relating to why this sort of work is hazardous, they really have little to do with what happened. There was evidence pointing to fuel starvation. One engine or two makes little difference. The fellow hanging below probably hit the ground while the pilot was still in the "What the?" stage of the auto.
KTVL CBS Channel 10 :: News - Top Stories - Fuel shortage may have caused helicopter crash
KTVL CBS Channel 10 :: News - Top Stories - Fuel shortage may have caused helicopter crash
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As a HEC pilot myself, it definitely has it's risks and rewards. It is a nice quick way of moving crews from tower to tower and exactly where they need to be. We try to minimise the amount of time they are actually on the line too. For example, keeping LZ's close to the work etc.
Any of the HEC accidents that have happened have all been pilot error. The Brim one, he ran out of fuel.
The linemen know the risks just as much as the pilots know the risks.
Skid transfer to the towers are probably more risky than putting the guys on with the line.
Any of the HEC accidents that have happened have all been pilot error. The Brim one, he ran out of fuel.
The linemen know the risks just as much as the pilots know the risks.
Skid transfer to the towers are probably more risky than putting the guys on with the line.
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Crab, come on old mate, we've discussed this previously.
I respect, and fully endorse your ability to decide that this type of operation isn't for you.
To advocate against it being done at all due to your decision is......
I respect, and fully endorse your ability to decide that this type of operation isn't for you.
To advocate against it being done at all due to your decision is......
The Brim one, he ran out of fuel.
.... if this is true, Will this pilot be help on some sort of homicide charges?
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Trans lift.
All of the accidents doing it off the skid were pilot error as well. And given the number of hours flown over the past 30 years doing skid/platform work, accidents using that method are rare or more so than with HEC in the past few years.
He did run out of fuel. The only question is were his indications fuctioning properly.
All of the accidents doing it off the skid were pilot error as well. And given the number of hours flown over the past 30 years doing skid/platform work, accidents using that method are rare or more so than with HEC in the past few years.
He did run out of fuel. The only question is were his indications fuctioning properly.
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Indications working properly.....since when does a pilot rely on a fuel gauge? That is only a reference.....known/verified quantity when fuelled and time is the only way of determining air time. The 500 also has a low level fuel light that is independent of the fuel indicator.......a very avoidable accident for sure.
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The light is not totally independant. The light is triggerd by a contact from a spring to the elbow with the float arm. The float arm must be calibrated annually by bending it to make sure the light comes on at the proper fuel level. I 34-42 pounds. If the spring is not calibrated the light will be off, If the arm is not bent correctly, the gauge will be off. If the float arm is hung up in the pump's electrical wires (it has happened) the light will not work and the gauge will stop moving.
However, you are correct, that the pilot should not rely solely on indications, and regarding the avoidability of the accident.
However, you are correct, that the pilot should not rely solely on indications, and regarding the avoidability of the accident.
Last edited by 500guy; 13th Dec 2013 at 18:54.