R-22 Rescues Model P-51 from Trees
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I tend not to post, and even more rare is me agreeing with crab....however, I have to agree with him 100%.
Any number of events, most of them completely outside the control of the pilot, could have turned this 'exercise' into a fatal accident.
I can immediately think of a similar situation where an instructor, trying to impress a student with how 'skilled' he was, and how much 'fun' can be had in helicopters managed to kill them both.
The first priority of any instructor is to impart, above all, a sense of self-discipline and a mature approach to flying. Without these any new pilot is an accident waiting to happen.
Totally unprofessional imho
Any number of events, most of them completely outside the control of the pilot, could have turned this 'exercise' into a fatal accident.
I can immediately think of a similar situation where an instructor, trying to impress a student with how 'skilled' he was, and how much 'fun' can be had in helicopters managed to kill them both.
The first priority of any instructor is to impart, above all, a sense of self-discipline and a mature approach to flying. Without these any new pilot is an accident waiting to happen.
Totally unprofessional imho
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This entire thread illustrates the differences between attitudes to aviation in Europe and America and quite eloquently sums up why aviation is dying in the UK.
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Two resulting scenarios for me:
1 - What actually happened, all went well,toy airplane recovered, no one hurt and nothing damaged.
- Opinion is split as to whether he made good use of his (or someone elses)machine and showed initiative, whilst teaching his student a tangible use of a helicopter, or;
- Complete reckless fool who put lives and his machine in unecessary danger for a toy.
2 - He clips a tree or has an engine/mechanical failure resulting in 2 dead/badly injured and the R22 written off.
- Opinion is overwhemingly one sided - Complete reckless fool who put lives and his machine in unecessary danger for a toy.
He got away with it this time.
1 - What actually happened, all went well,toy airplane recovered, no one hurt and nothing damaged.
- Opinion is split as to whether he made good use of his (or someone elses)machine and showed initiative, whilst teaching his student a tangible use of a helicopter, or;
- Complete reckless fool who put lives and his machine in unecessary danger for a toy.
2 - He clips a tree or has an engine/mechanical failure resulting in 2 dead/badly injured and the R22 written off.
- Opinion is overwhemingly one sided - Complete reckless fool who put lives and his machine in unecessary danger for a toy.
He got away with it this time.
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So God is flying around in a helicopter?
Nothing would have happened to this guy anyway he is God: "he sees everything"!
He is obviously someone who is trying to enjoy every minute of his life. Sounds like a real character and probably fun to be around on the ground, not sure I would get in a helicopter for a lesson with him though!
You can clearly see the MAP gauge and it is sitting around 23" when he is trying to pick the plane out of the tree. Considering the weight of the pilots, the temperature (doors off) and the lack of wind there isn't much power to get out of any snagging or re-circulation caused by the trees. Then he pegs it on 25" (which I'm sure is more than the max for the day) just to sneak over the top of the trees... phew! And then giving it back on the ground with all those people walking under the disc!!!
You wouldn't see me trying this or recommending anyone else do it but hey he did it and got away with it and everyone was happy this time. One thing for sure it is certainly an interesting video and a great tool for learning through debate.
PT
He is obviously someone who is trying to enjoy every minute of his life. Sounds like a real character and probably fun to be around on the ground, not sure I would get in a helicopter for a lesson with him though!
You can clearly see the MAP gauge and it is sitting around 23" when he is trying to pick the plane out of the tree. Considering the weight of the pilots, the temperature (doors off) and the lack of wind there isn't much power to get out of any snagging or re-circulation caused by the trees. Then he pegs it on 25" (which I'm sure is more than the max for the day) just to sneak over the top of the trees... phew! And then giving it back on the ground with all those people walking under the disc!!!
You wouldn't see me trying this or recommending anyone else do it but hey he did it and got away with it and everyone was happy this time. One thing for sure it is certainly an interesting video and a great tool for learning through debate.
PT
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Curiosity got the better of me so I had a hover over some similar styled conifers, there was almost a hint of ground effect up there and even if there has been an engine failure (when was the last time anyone had one of those?) the trees would have cushioned the fall
I did have a 10kt headwind that might have helped a little, but I don't think there was anything more than a little fun to this and certainly no need to get all wound up about it!
Well done Tommy, having some fun and making good use of your heli - that's what they're for after all!
I did have a 10kt headwind that might have helped a little, but I don't think there was anything more than a little fun to this and certainly no need to get all wound up about it!
Well done Tommy, having some fun and making good use of your heli - that's what they're for after all!
Okay look, the "problem" is not what the CFI did. Retrieving an RC plane stuck up in a tree? ZZZzzzzz. Big deal. The problem is how he went about it.
It was obviously an instructional flight, and the guy in the right seat is obviously a non-rated student. When the CFI notices the RC plane go into the trees, he grabs the controls and without even clearing his turn he begins to circle around. During the turn he impulsively makes the decision to go "rescue" the model plane. The student agrees.
Without much planning, the CFI makes an approach to the tops of the trees. No circling for a bit to figure things out, no checking the wind (although it appears the wind was pretty calm that day), no checking for obstacles/wires, no high/low recon, no nothing. Just ZOOP! down into the trees he goes! He asks the student to clear his tail. After retrieving the object they land and hand it over. Full of adrenaline, ego and good cheer, the instructor gives the controls back to the student who makes a very quick departure without so much as any sort of pre-takeoff checks.
I have a little problem with this.
First of all, it sets an awful example for the student, who may be inclined to pull the same sort of stunt after he gets rated. That CFI clearly is deficient and substandard, teaching all sorts of bad habits to his students. He should be re-evaluated by the FAA.
Me? I would've taken my time and figured out in advance how I was going to do it. I would've gone slowly. I would have come to an OGE hover before getting into the trees. I would've cleared my own tail or I wouldn't have even attempted it. Now, I'm not saying that I would've taken all day to do this thing - I just would not have rushed it as fast as the CFI obviously did. And I've got tons more time than he.
Finally, I hate...REALLY REALLY hate people who just "pull and go" on takeoff. What's the rush? Take your time, man. "Okay, gauges are up, lights are out, we've got plenty of fuel and the wind....ahhh, there's not much wind so we'll go out this way. You lift to a hover, check hover power and if all is still well, then you go. Is there any other way? When I was at PHI there were days when I'd do 70-80 flights per day. And I'd do that little pretakeoff check before EVERY one of them, even if I had just landed to drop off one guy and was only down at idle for a couple of seconds. You don't rush. Rushing gets you killed.
If the pilots that school is turning out fly like that CFI, we're in trouble. Because he is teaching them some very bad philosophies, habits and techniques. Sure, helicopters can do plenty of things other than fly straight and level from one airport to another, but we have to operate them safely. And what that CFI did was absolutely not done in a safe, prudent or professional way. It was clear showboating for an impressionable student (who now thinks he's a skygod) and some people on the ground.
A bad, bad deal all around. Shameful.
Soapbox Mode: OFF
It was obviously an instructional flight, and the guy in the right seat is obviously a non-rated student. When the CFI notices the RC plane go into the trees, he grabs the controls and without even clearing his turn he begins to circle around. During the turn he impulsively makes the decision to go "rescue" the model plane. The student agrees.
Without much planning, the CFI makes an approach to the tops of the trees. No circling for a bit to figure things out, no checking the wind (although it appears the wind was pretty calm that day), no checking for obstacles/wires, no high/low recon, no nothing. Just ZOOP! down into the trees he goes! He asks the student to clear his tail. After retrieving the object they land and hand it over. Full of adrenaline, ego and good cheer, the instructor gives the controls back to the student who makes a very quick departure without so much as any sort of pre-takeoff checks.
I have a little problem with this.
First of all, it sets an awful example for the student, who may be inclined to pull the same sort of stunt after he gets rated. That CFI clearly is deficient and substandard, teaching all sorts of bad habits to his students. He should be re-evaluated by the FAA.
Me? I would've taken my time and figured out in advance how I was going to do it. I would've gone slowly. I would have come to an OGE hover before getting into the trees. I would've cleared my own tail or I wouldn't have even attempted it. Now, I'm not saying that I would've taken all day to do this thing - I just would not have rushed it as fast as the CFI obviously did. And I've got tons more time than he.
Finally, I hate...REALLY REALLY hate people who just "pull and go" on takeoff. What's the rush? Take your time, man. "Okay, gauges are up, lights are out, we've got plenty of fuel and the wind....ahhh, there's not much wind so we'll go out this way. You lift to a hover, check hover power and if all is still well, then you go. Is there any other way? When I was at PHI there were days when I'd do 70-80 flights per day. And I'd do that little pretakeoff check before EVERY one of them, even if I had just landed to drop off one guy and was only down at idle for a couple of seconds. You don't rush. Rushing gets you killed.
If the pilots that school is turning out fly like that CFI, we're in trouble. Because he is teaching them some very bad philosophies, habits and techniques. Sure, helicopters can do plenty of things other than fly straight and level from one airport to another, but we have to operate them safely. And what that CFI did was absolutely not done in a safe, prudent or professional way. It was clear showboating for an impressionable student (who now thinks he's a skygod) and some people on the ground.
A bad, bad deal all around. Shameful.
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the trees would have cushioned the fall
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Ground effect from trees?? Whaaat???? And even if it did occur what do you suppose would happen as you slithered off the "ground cushion" with the crown of the next tree thirty yards ahead - and open air in between?
Trees cushion the fall?? You call surviving a nasty crash and then tumbling 80 feet with the all the wreckage plus getting kebabed by logs, branches and splintered bits of tree crashing down on top of you "cushioned" do you? Pin-cushioned more like.
Sheesh! Whatever you've been smoking has severely damaged your imagination and a lack of imagination can be hazardous around helicopters pal, as all this clearly demonstrates.
Trees cushion the fall?? You call surviving a nasty crash and then tumbling 80 feet with the all the wreckage plus getting kebabed by logs, branches and splintered bits of tree crashing down on top of you "cushioned" do you? Pin-cushioned more like.
Sheesh! Whatever you've been smoking has severely damaged your imagination and a lack of imagination can be hazardous around helicopters pal, as all this clearly demonstrates.
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 14th Nov 2012 at 15:23.
Avoid imitations
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In UK a plane crash like that, if it had come from abroad, would be logged by Special Branch. The yanks should take a leaf out of that book.
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Sorry no troll, just cheated as was -80 kg on my todd so easy peasy
Not got many hours under my belt so probably not such a bad thing going solo
Mind you I fly for fun so am less inclined to give birth at the sight of someone in the avoid curve than some of you
Happy landings x x x
Not got many hours under my belt so probably not such a bad thing going solo
Mind you I fly for fun so am less inclined to give birth at the sight of someone in the avoid curve than some of you
Happy landings x x x
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so easy peasy
At 500hrs a pilot knows he knows it all.
At 5000hrs he knows he'll never know it all.
I think we can place you pretty accurately on that scale pal...
I suggest you try actually having a crash in a helicopter (I have) so you understand just how quickly things can go wrong and just how unforgiving the ground is - all this bluster and bravado is just comical