Don't Mess With Texas!
Thread Starter
Don't Mess With Texas!
Just saw this article....seems a Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS) Officer engaged a fleeing vehicle by firing a weapon from a helicopter that was assisting a Texas Game Warden who was in a high speed pursuit.
Two dead...one Wounded....investigation continues!
This is going to turn into a real Bucket of Worms for all concerned I fear!
My Way News - 2 dead after flying trooper fires at vehicle
Two dead...one Wounded....investigation continues!
This is going to turn into a real Bucket of Worms for all concerned I fear!
My Way News - 2 dead after flying trooper fires at vehicle
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Would prefer that we did the same in UK.
High-speed car chases are risky for all those in the vacinity on the ground. Well-aimed gunfire is risky only for those refusing to stop.
High-speed car chases are risky for all those in the vacinity on the ground. Well-aimed gunfire is risky only for those refusing to stop.
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I think the communications between everyone would have everyone
a bit more informed than "oh look, that car is speeding away from the
game ranger, let's shoot it up and stop it".
a bit more informed than "oh look, that car is speeding away from the
game ranger, let's shoot it up and stop it".
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Taking someones life (other than through due legal process) should only be a last resort when there is an immediate threat to the life of others. Engaging from a helicopter in circumstances like this will always be controversial because there are limited opportunities for the target to surrender and because most (all?) law enforcement agencies require their officers to issue a warning before opening fire, if time permits. It would be interesting to see their rules of engagement here.
As those of you that either know first hand or read from research the US expectation is that they will do it one day so they regularly train with live firing for the occasion. Hence the addition of the firing element to the American Europter simulator [as above image].
Some US police units [LAPD for instasnce] train for it, buy special equipment for it [the Tyler utility mount] and train regularly for air to ground firing and 'pop up' attacks on high rise buildings with officers exposed to full view sitting on the Tyler Mount. All designed to increase accuracy and reduce the spray effect of any firearm discharged in this manner.
The average UK police officer would never give the scenario a thought, let alone train for it. But plenty of other nations do it - who cares if a few peasants collect the strays?
It was with that mindset that I asked LAPD whether they had ever used any of the air firing tactics in living memory.
No, never.
So some do and some do not.
It seems to be placed in the same category as dropping Scuba divers off the skids of Bell 412s from 20 feet. It looks great on film but there might be less blue on blue injuries if you actually do it from 20 inches and save them getting clouted on the back of the head by the air tank. Unnecessary risks.
Some US police units [LAPD for instasnce] train for it, buy special equipment for it [the Tyler utility mount] and train regularly for air to ground firing and 'pop up' attacks on high rise buildings with officers exposed to full view sitting on the Tyler Mount. All designed to increase accuracy and reduce the spray effect of any firearm discharged in this manner.
The average UK police officer would never give the scenario a thought, let alone train for it. But plenty of other nations do it - who cares if a few peasants collect the strays?
It was with that mindset that I asked LAPD whether they had ever used any of the air firing tactics in living memory.
No, never.
So some do and some do not.
It seems to be placed in the same category as dropping Scuba divers off the skids of Bell 412s from 20 feet. It looks great on film but there might be less blue on blue injuries if you actually do it from 20 inches and save them getting clouted on the back of the head by the air tank. Unnecessary risks.
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Please keep in mind this is the south border area. Both sides of the border are infested with extremely well armed drug gangs. And by well armed I mean an AK47 is considered a minimum weapon. Peace Officers in the border areas have to deal with this every day. Recently Mexico had to send their army into one of their border states to bring the level of chaos down a couple of levels.
So those of you who do not live in this area, we have to live with it. The officers involved did their job and did it well. Unfortunately, the politicians, local, state and federal will sell them down the river to win votes.
So those of you who do not live in this area, we have to live with it. The officers involved did their job and did it well. Unfortunately, the politicians, local, state and federal will sell them down the river to win votes.
"Just a pilot"
I would think that a basic tenet of a rational use of deadly force would be to prevent further violence to self or the public. A high speed chase puts everybody in it's path at risk. The peace officers in pursuit are demanding that the speeding vehicle stop, lights, siren, etc. Most pursuits start as a less threatening situation that the pursued driver wishes to avoid the consequences of, and consciously decides on a hazardous behavior. The vehicle at that point is potentially a weapon. It's purely a choice that the driver makes, and can reverse at any point. It's a credit to the professional peace officers that more high speed pursuit perps aren't killed.
I also believe that a lot of high speed pursuits are not rationally justified, presenting too great a hazard to the public, peace officers, and the idiots driving the pursued vehicles. I didn't mention felons or suspected felons driving the pursued vehicles, because that's a whole different scenario outside my experience. 11 MPH above the speed limit isn't automatically a deadly hazard to the public, but I have seen it become one with a stupid driver in a very fast car.
I also believe that a lot of high speed pursuits are not rationally justified, presenting too great a hazard to the public, peace officers, and the idiots driving the pursued vehicles. I didn't mention felons or suspected felons driving the pursued vehicles, because that's a whole different scenario outside my experience. 11 MPH above the speed limit isn't automatically a deadly hazard to the public, but I have seen it become one with a stupid driver in a very fast car.
DPS helicopter opens fire during chase; 2 dead - The Monitor: Local News
This facts presented in this article are in line with most of what I've heard peer to peer. Let the investigation reveal whether the trooper was justified. My guess is that he is going to live with some regrets.
This facts presented in this article are in line with most of what I've heard peer to peer. Let the investigation reveal whether the trooper was justified. My guess is that he is going to live with some regrets.
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It doesnt say they were killed from bullets fired at them.Maybe tyres shot out,or similar then crashed,
2 killed,1 injured and 6 arrested. Total of 9 in the car going for a pinic in the park---------sure.
Sends a message out---------dont run.
Probably saved the life of innocent people down the road further.
2 killed,1 injured and 6 arrested. Total of 9 in the car going for a pinic in the park---------sure.
Sends a message out---------dont run.
Probably saved the life of innocent people down the road further.
Thread Starter
Let me guess....maybe one US Citizen in the bunch.
It probably does not help that in this instance the Los Angeles Times has reported that the occupants of the truck were SUSPECTED of drug running but that no drugs were found after the incident.
Lots of stuff for an inclined politician to use against the police in that outcome.
As stated above policing in the UK and Texas are worlds apart but if shooting was acceptable punishment for just running away I will have had over 50 instances on my hands so perhaps it was a good job they only gave me a lump of wood to protect myself - and hand out retribution.
A world apart.
Lots of stuff for an inclined politician to use against the police in that outcome.
As stated above policing in the UK and Texas are worlds apart but if shooting was acceptable punishment for just running away I will have had over 50 instances on my hands so perhaps it was a good job they only gave me a lump of wood to protect myself - and hand out retribution.
A world apart.
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2 Dead after Texas trooper shoots at vehicle from helicopter during high speed chase: Washington Post
Texas trooper who fired from helicopter was trying to disable pickup truck during deadly chase
LA JOYA, Texas — A Texas state trooper who fired on a pickup truck from a helicopter during a deadly chase through the desert was trying to disable the vehicle and suspected it was being used to smuggle drugs, authorities said Friday.
The disclosure came a day after the incident left two illegal immigrants from Guatemala dead on an isolated gravel road near the town of La Joya, just north of the Mexico border.
State game wardens were the first to encounter the truck Thursday. After the driver refused to stop, they radioed for help and state police responded, according to Parks and Wildlife Department spokesman Mike Cox.
When the helicopter with a sharpshooter arrived, officers concluded that the truck appeared to be carrying a “typical covered drug load” on its bed and was travelling at reckless speeds, police said.
After the shots were fired and the truck’s tires blown out, the driver lost control and crashed into a ditch.
Eight people who were in the truck were arrested. At least seven of them were also from Guatemala. No drugs were found.
The sharpshooter was placed on administrative leave, a standard procedure after such incidents.
An expert on police chases said the decision to fire on the truck was “a reckless act” that served “no legitimate law enforcement purpose.”
“In 25 years following police pursuits, I hadn’t seen a situation where an officer shot a speeding vehicle from a helicopter,” said Geoffrey Alpert, professor of criminology at the University of South Carolina. Such action would be reasonable only if “you know for sure the person driving the car deserves to die and that there are no other occupants.”
In general, he said, law enforcement agencies allow the use of deadly force only when the car is being used as a weapon, not “just on a hunch,” Alpert added.
The Texas Department of Public Safety did not immediately respond to an Associated Press request for the agency’s policy governing the use of deadly force.
Other law enforcement agencies that patrol the border say they have limits on the practice.
For instance, federal Customs and Borders Protection agents “are trained to use deadly force in circumstances that pose a threat to their lives, the lives of their fellow law enforcement partners and innocent third parties,” agency spokesman Doug Mosier said.
But a report presented Thursday to the United Nations by the American Civil Liberties Union said shootings and excessive force by Customs and Border Protection agents on the border have left at least 20 individuals dead or seriously hurt since January 2010.
Of those, eight cases involved agents responding to reports of people throwing rocks. Six involved people killed while standing on the Mexican side of the border.
In recent years, Texas state police have increased their presence in the border area, deploying more agents, more helicopters and more boats to patrol the Rio Grande.
Troopers are regularly involved in high-speed pursuits, often chasing drug smugglers into the river and back to Mexico.
Agency Director Stephen McCraw has said state police were pushed into that role because the federal government’s efforts to secure the border have been insufficient.
Diplomats quickly began their own investigation into the chase.
LA JOYA, Texas — A Texas state trooper who fired on a pickup truck from a helicopter during a deadly chase through the desert was trying to disable the vehicle and suspected it was being used to smuggle drugs, authorities said Friday.
The disclosure came a day after the incident left two illegal immigrants from Guatemala dead on an isolated gravel road near the town of La Joya, just north of the Mexico border.
State game wardens were the first to encounter the truck Thursday. After the driver refused to stop, they radioed for help and state police responded, according to Parks and Wildlife Department spokesman Mike Cox.
When the helicopter with a sharpshooter arrived, officers concluded that the truck appeared to be carrying a “typical covered drug load” on its bed and was travelling at reckless speeds, police said.
After the shots were fired and the truck’s tires blown out, the driver lost control and crashed into a ditch.
Eight people who were in the truck were arrested. At least seven of them were also from Guatemala. No drugs were found.
The sharpshooter was placed on administrative leave, a standard procedure after such incidents.
An expert on police chases said the decision to fire on the truck was “a reckless act” that served “no legitimate law enforcement purpose.”
“In 25 years following police pursuits, I hadn’t seen a situation where an officer shot a speeding vehicle from a helicopter,” said Geoffrey Alpert, professor of criminology at the University of South Carolina. Such action would be reasonable only if “you know for sure the person driving the car deserves to die and that there are no other occupants.”
In general, he said, law enforcement agencies allow the use of deadly force only when the car is being used as a weapon, not “just on a hunch,” Alpert added.
The Texas Department of Public Safety did not immediately respond to an Associated Press request for the agency’s policy governing the use of deadly force.
Other law enforcement agencies that patrol the border say they have limits on the practice.
For instance, federal Customs and Borders Protection agents “are trained to use deadly force in circumstances that pose a threat to their lives, the lives of their fellow law enforcement partners and innocent third parties,” agency spokesman Doug Mosier said.
But a report presented Thursday to the United Nations by the American Civil Liberties Union said shootings and excessive force by Customs and Border Protection agents on the border have left at least 20 individuals dead or seriously hurt since January 2010.
Of those, eight cases involved agents responding to reports of people throwing rocks. Six involved people killed while standing on the Mexican side of the border.
In recent years, Texas state police have increased their presence in the border area, deploying more agents, more helicopters and more boats to patrol the Rio Grande.
Troopers are regularly involved in high-speed pursuits, often chasing drug smugglers into the river and back to Mexico.
Agency Director Stephen McCraw has said state police were pushed into that role because the federal government’s efforts to secure the border have been insufficient.
Diplomats quickly began their own investigation into the chase.
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Typical media BS.
They state the trooper was intending to disable the vehicle, which he did. His fire was not intended to be lethal, nor was it. It was highly accurate and effective. He prevented the criminals (if you run, you have commited a criminal act, regardless of why you were asked to stop) from endangering anyone else or escaping.
The lethal consequences are the responsibility of the driver: his decision to run and to exceed his own ability to drive.
...based on the last article posted.
They state the trooper was intending to disable the vehicle, which he did. His fire was not intended to be lethal, nor was it. It was highly accurate and effective. He prevented the criminals (if you run, you have commited a criminal act, regardless of why you were asked to stop) from endangering anyone else or escaping.
The lethal consequences are the responsibility of the driver: his decision to run and to exceed his own ability to drive.
...based on the last article posted.
Thread Starter
This is an Idiot talking........
“In 25 years following police pursuits, I hadn’t seen a situation where an officer shot a speeding vehicle from a helicopter,” said Geoffrey Alpert, professor of criminology at the University of South Carolina. Such action would be reasonable only if “you know for sure the person driving the car deserves to die and that there are no other occupants.”
Pilot and Apprentice
I note that your post was only put on Pprune after you took on a new identity.
Aside from this Texas case - which it is looking decidely like the agencies had no real choice in their actions - your statement that "if you run, you have commited a criminal act, regardless of why you were asked to stop" is coming from a real apprentice.
People run for all sorts of reasons - as in the very recent case of the blind man in the UK wielding a "Samurai sword."
Luckily he only got tazered. But he did drop his lethal white walking stick!
I note that your post was only put on Pprune after you took on a new identity.
Aside from this Texas case - which it is looking decidely like the agencies had no real choice in their actions - your statement that "if you run, you have commited a criminal act, regardless of why you were asked to stop" is coming from a real apprentice.
People run for all sorts of reasons - as in the very recent case of the blind man in the UK wielding a "Samurai sword."
Luckily he only got tazered. But he did drop his lethal white walking stick!
It's very common (and very effective and safe) to fire on a véhicule from an helicopter in the Caribbean Sea to stop a supected drug speed boad.
If the crew (pilots and gunner) is well trained, it's quite easy to shoot to the two or three engines at the back even at full speed.
The gunner is always a marksman because it's a real job to shoot without collateral damage.
And by the way, nobody remembers the "BlackHawk down" film, how the good guys stopped the car of the very bad guy ?!!
.
If the crew (pilots and gunner) is well trained, it's quite easy to shoot to the two or three engines at the back even at full speed.
The gunner is always a marksman because it's a real job to shoot without collateral damage.
And by the way, nobody remembers the "BlackHawk down" film, how the good guys stopped the car of the very bad guy ?!!
.
Last edited by HeliHenri; 27th Oct 2012 at 09:39.