flying an experimental Helicopter in the UK
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From: wadhurst
flying an experimental Helicopter in the UK
I'm looking at buying the KIS 209 produced by Farma Helicopters in Italy. It fly's under the Italian experimental category. Can anyone advise with regards the CAA requirements to flying in the UK and how obtain a relevant type rating?
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From: UK
Extremely difficult, if not entirely impossible.
Experimental is not a term recognised by the EASA/UK CAA system. I think the essential divide these days will be manufactured and kit built. Manufactured will need to satisfy the relevant EASA code (or FAA equivalent if built in the USA). Kit built used to be subject to a special CAA process, which lead to a UK CAA permit to fly. I am not sure whether a system exists under the current system at all. If it does it will be at least as difficult to do as the old system.
I believe there is only one type of kit helicopter that can be built and flown in the UK: the Rotorway (in various versions but including the Exec). I understand that the UK distributor and the USA kit manufacturer took years to get CAA acceptance. I doubt that any indivdiual will have the resources to complete a similar exercise.
You need to ask the CAA, but the answer will be as close to "NO" as makes no difference, I suggest.
Experimental is not a term recognised by the EASA/UK CAA system. I think the essential divide these days will be manufactured and kit built. Manufactured will need to satisfy the relevant EASA code (or FAA equivalent if built in the USA). Kit built used to be subject to a special CAA process, which lead to a UK CAA permit to fly. I am not sure whether a system exists under the current system at all. If it does it will be at least as difficult to do as the old system.
I believe there is only one type of kit helicopter that can be built and flown in the UK: the Rotorway (in various versions but including the Exec). I understand that the UK distributor and the USA kit manufacturer took years to get CAA acceptance. I doubt that any indivdiual will have the resources to complete a similar exercise.
You need to ask the CAA, but the answer will be as close to "NO" as makes no difference, I suggest.
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From: UK
Wellard
Despite what the previous posts may have you think; it's not actually impossible to get a CAA Permit to Fly for an 'Experimental' Helicopter.
The process is clearly defined under BCARs (British Civil Airworthiness Requirments). The problem is that BCARs are very stringent and require a mountain of tests, paperwork and engineering reports; with no gaurantee of success at the end of it.
Most people consider these requirments to be excessively onerous, and unless they have very deep pockets, for all intents and purposes, are practically impossible to acheive.
Unless you have excess cash, stress levels and heartbeats, I'd concurr with everyone else.
JJ
Despite what the previous posts may have you think; it's not actually impossible to get a CAA Permit to Fly for an 'Experimental' Helicopter.
The process is clearly defined under BCARs (British Civil Airworthiness Requirments). The problem is that BCARs are very stringent and require a mountain of tests, paperwork and engineering reports; with no gaurantee of success at the end of it.
Most people consider these requirments to be excessively onerous, and unless they have very deep pockets, for all intents and purposes, are practically impossible to acheive.
Unless you have excess cash, stress levels and heartbeats, I'd concurr with everyone else.
JJ
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From: ˙ǝqɐq ǝɯ ʇ,uıɐ ʇɐɥʇ 'sɔıʇɐqoɹǝɐ ɹoɟ uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɯɐu ɹıǝɥʇ ʇnd ǝɯos
Ahhh UK Regulations I remember them!
And to add insult to injury once jumping all the hurdles proving its a safe kit you won't be able to perform the first flights yourself unless you are a designated test pilot.
Additionally the UK Regulators will want to go for a jolly in it every year to ensure it meets requirements. Think travel expenses, daily fees and pre flight inspections.
Given all the regulations and expenses in having other people fly 'your' helicopter versus your own flights you might wonder whose helicopter it is.
It's probably going to be cheaper and more reliable to operate a certified type! Find a nice Enstrom and give up hope of building or innovating in the UK.
OOW
And to add insult to injury once jumping all the hurdles proving its a safe kit you won't be able to perform the first flights yourself unless you are a designated test pilot.
Additionally the UK Regulators will want to go for a jolly in it every year to ensure it meets requirements. Think travel expenses, daily fees and pre flight inspections.
Given all the regulations and expenses in having other people fly 'your' helicopter versus your own flights you might wonder whose helicopter it is.
It's probably going to be cheaper and more reliable to operate a certified type! Find a nice Enstrom and give up hope of building or innovating in the UK.
OOW
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From: Coventry, UK
I'll throw this in as a thought..
Why in this happy world of EASA can't a machine accepted in one EASA state be simply transferred to another?
Would the CAA like to put into print why the playing field is anything less than smooth? Surely they can't be suggesting some member states are more lax, tolerant etc...
Now I understand kitbuilts usually fall under the local authority but why not get it EASA CofA approved in an 'easy' country & then force the issue! EASA being pan-European and all?
Hmmm
Why in this happy world of EASA can't a machine accepted in one EASA state be simply transferred to another?
Would the CAA like to put into print why the playing field is anything less than smooth? Surely they can't be suggesting some member states are more lax, tolerant etc...
Now I understand kitbuilts usually fall under the local authority but why not get it EASA CofA approved in an 'easy' country & then force the issue! EASA being pan-European and all?
Hmmm
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From: UK
Jeff
It's possible to certify the aircraft if it meets the stringent requirements of EASA certification (The R66 still doesn't meet EASA certification requirments). This palying field is level.
However, as an 'Experimental' it won't meet those requirements in several areas. In order to allow a lesser airworthiness standard for 'Experimentals', individual states can specify their own requirements (BCARs in the UK) but this restricts the use of the aircraft to the state of registry (unless specifically apporved otherwise by other states). Other EASA states have less stringent requirements than the UK (Italy is an example), then there are other states that have more stringent rules.
A certified aircraft conveys a 'right' to fly. Any other system such as 'Experimental' or 'Permit to Fly' conveys only a restricted 'priviledge'.
JJ
It's possible to certify the aircraft if it meets the stringent requirements of EASA certification (The R66 still doesn't meet EASA certification requirments). This palying field is level.
However, as an 'Experimental' it won't meet those requirements in several areas. In order to allow a lesser airworthiness standard for 'Experimentals', individual states can specify their own requirements (BCARs in the UK) but this restricts the use of the aircraft to the state of registry (unless specifically apporved otherwise by other states). Other EASA states have less stringent requirements than the UK (Italy is an example), then there are other states that have more stringent rules.
A certified aircraft conveys a 'right' to fly. Any other system such as 'Experimental' or 'Permit to Fly' conveys only a restricted 'priviledge'.
JJ
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From: wadhurst
Thanks Helinut,
Certainly looks like a maintain to climb, but may be my ignorance of CAA processes is an advantage at this stage, I'll look into the BCARs suggested by jellycopter and see where I go from here!
Certainly looks like a maintain to climb, but may be my ignorance of CAA processes is an advantage at this stage, I'll look into the BCARs suggested by jellycopter and see where I go from here!
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: ˙ǝqɐq ǝɯ ʇ,uıɐ ʇɐɥʇ 'sɔıʇɐqoɹǝɐ ɹoɟ uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɯɐu ɹıǝɥʇ ʇnd ǝɯos
Probably bankrupted by the CAA.
Why can't the CAA just relax all the onerous restrictions on homebuilders like the FAA did long ago in the USA. The experimental aircraft association ( EAA ) in America is a wonderful example of what the freedom to experiment would allow.
See EAA.org and air venture.org
Instead the UK gets an over protective regulator which is denying everybody the ability to enjoy an area of aviation that the UK once excelled at.
Why can't the CAA just relax all the onerous restrictions on homebuilders like the FAA did long ago in the USA. The experimental aircraft association ( EAA ) in America is a wonderful example of what the freedom to experiment would allow.
See EAA.org and air venture.org
Instead the UK gets an over protective regulator which is denying everybody the ability to enjoy an area of aviation that the UK once excelled at.
Last edited by outofwhack; 22nd October 2012 at 09:38.
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From: london
"but may be my ignorance of CAA processes is an advantage at this stage"
Nope...it'll be an advantage to Nino Fama's wallet if you buy one...that's all
Nope...it'll be an advantage to Nino Fama's wallet if you buy one...that's all
Last edited by parasite drag; 22nd October 2012 at 10:36.
Joined: Jul 2009
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From: Hampshire, England
I trained in a kit heli in the UK and got my licence but......
it cost my instructor dearly!
I then discovered that in South Africa their CAA had approved the latest version of the Rotorway Talon, with many good upgrades including a supercharged engine. Went to Capetown and did ten hours to get typed on it as there, with a non-type certification I could hire and train on such a machine. Hoping to persue this new (only five years old) design in the UK I find that, like the R66, it has been built here years ago but is not yet CAA approved. No wonder light helis, gyros and fixed wing developments are done everywhere in the world barring the UK. This could, and should change and if the UK PRA refuse to touch helis, we could and should organise ourselves to overcome the leglislative obstacles. I would work hard to support this.
I then discovered that in South Africa their CAA had approved the latest version of the Rotorway Talon, with many good upgrades including a supercharged engine. Went to Capetown and did ten hours to get typed on it as there, with a non-type certification I could hire and train on such a machine. Hoping to persue this new (only five years old) design in the UK I find that, like the R66, it has been built here years ago but is not yet CAA approved. No wonder light helis, gyros and fixed wing developments are done everywhere in the world barring the UK. This could, and should change and if the UK PRA refuse to touch helis, we could and should organise ourselves to overcome the leglislative obstacles. I would work hard to support this.
