Engine failure
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 18
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From: Georgia
Engine failure
I'm not sure if this question has addressed lately, sorry if it has, but I would like to hear some opinions.
I'm a low timer, about 100 hours. I mainly fly over wooded areas and I'm always thinking about engine failure and how would I tackle the landing/crash if I really had one. I've heard different stories about the best way to tackle it, some say flare till the last sec and drop in tail first, some say dump all airspeed on the flare then level the ship and settle in to the tops of the trees.
Maybe there's not any one good way to handle the situation. Maybe it's just pucker up and hope for the best. eeek!
I'm looking up at the 100+ feet pine trees as I'm typing this and I can't really think of any good way to get down if i had to land/crash on top of them. I could see if there was some huge oak tree to settle into that could hold the weight of the dead bird your riding, that would be some what of a solution. But besides that, ahhh. I'm not sure what is that best course of action.
I would love to hear from anyone that might have an opinion about this or who has been through the horror of and engine failure over trees.
I look foreword to hearing your opinions / about your experiences.
Big thanks.
I'm a low timer, about 100 hours. I mainly fly over wooded areas and I'm always thinking about engine failure and how would I tackle the landing/crash if I really had one. I've heard different stories about the best way to tackle it, some say flare till the last sec and drop in tail first, some say dump all airspeed on the flare then level the ship and settle in to the tops of the trees.
Maybe there's not any one good way to handle the situation. Maybe it's just pucker up and hope for the best. eeek!
I'm looking up at the 100+ feet pine trees as I'm typing this and I can't really think of any good way to get down if i had to land/crash on top of them. I could see if there was some huge oak tree to settle into that could hold the weight of the dead bird your riding, that would be some what of a solution. But besides that, ahhh. I'm not sure what is that best course of action.
I would love to hear from anyone that might have an opinion about this or who has been through the horror of and engine failure over trees.
I look foreword to hearing your opinions / about your experiences.
Big thanks.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,330
Likes: 74
From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
I often ponder this as I flit between power lines and trees...
I think if it came to actually landing in trees, I would get the tail going into them first, then maybe allow it to flop forward. The reason for this is a friend of mine went into the trees in a normal attitude and ended up with the cyclic in his middle (no spleen now) as the blades hit. Also, there is more of the machine between you and them. Of course on the day it will be different, but where I can, I fly from clearing to clearing or at least note the ones to try for every 5 secs or so.
Don't forget, the object is to walk away, so don't worry about the machine.
Phil
I think if it came to actually landing in trees, I would get the tail going into them first, then maybe allow it to flop forward. The reason for this is a friend of mine went into the trees in a normal attitude and ended up with the cyclic in his middle (no spleen now) as the blades hit. Also, there is more of the machine between you and them. Of course on the day it will be different, but where I can, I fly from clearing to clearing or at least note the ones to try for every 5 secs or so.
Don't forget, the object is to walk away, so don't worry about the machine.
Phil
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 489
Likes: 2
From: UK
Hi Nikki,
Flying over trees is not defensive flying. Obviously this won't help if flying over such terrain is a commerical necessity but if you are prepared to take the risk then I guess you must accept the risk and it's likely outcome - described by Phil above.
If your flying for fun - avoid harsh terrain - it's simply not worth it, give yourself an easy way out.
If you must fly over this terrain - would it be possible to switch to a twin?
With regards your question - I don't there's a correct answer other than avoid the terrain. If you go in, it's gonna hurt.
Take Care,
Cran
Flying over trees is not defensive flying. Obviously this won't help if flying over such terrain is a commerical necessity but if you are prepared to take the risk then I guess you must accept the risk and it's likely outcome - described by Phil above.
If your flying for fun - avoid harsh terrain - it's simply not worth it, give yourself an easy way out.
If you must fly over this terrain - would it be possible to switch to a twin?
With regards your question - I don't there's a correct answer other than avoid the terrain. If you go in, it's gonna hurt.
Take Care,
Cran
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 1,083
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
nikki,
The only safe way to land in trees is between them! Otherwise it matters not what technique is used to cushion onto the canopy because a perfect landing 100 ft up may be followed shortly afterwards by a 100 ft plummet with no visible means of support.
Having learned my trade over jungle terrain I can confirm that even in a twin it needs some careful consideration (the avoid curve still exists for a twin).
The military teaching is to avoid wooded areas where possible, if not then at least aim to fly over the upwind end so in the unlkely event of things going rather quiet in the engine department you can turn away from the trees as you turn into wind. Same goes for wires, aerials farms etc.
Having been required to instruct mountain flying in singles in my time, I am now thankful that I'm no longer in that game...and flying twin engines again... wife, kids, mortgage etc etc...
Take care!
The only safe way to land in trees is between them! Otherwise it matters not what technique is used to cushion onto the canopy because a perfect landing 100 ft up may be followed shortly afterwards by a 100 ft plummet with no visible means of support.
Having learned my trade over jungle terrain I can confirm that even in a twin it needs some careful consideration (the avoid curve still exists for a twin).
The military teaching is to avoid wooded areas where possible, if not then at least aim to fly over the upwind end so in the unlkely event of things going rather quiet in the engine department you can turn away from the trees as you turn into wind. Same goes for wires, aerials farms etc.
Having been required to instruct mountain flying in singles in my time, I am now thankful that I'm no longer in that game...and flying twin engines again... wife, kids, mortgage etc etc...
Take care!
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 452
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
The following United States Patent Application #20020030136, was filed last month ( March 14, 2002 ). Perhaps it should have been filed on the morning of April 1.
"Three methods of deploying safety parachutes from a helicopter for landing it in case of an accident are shown. They solve the problem of the parachutes becoming tangled with the large propeller of a helicopter in such circumstances. Additionally, speed reduction jets are provided to reduce the falling speed of the helicopter to achieve its safe landing. Inflatable air bags are provided on both sides of its belly and inflatable tubular gaskets are provided around the door joints for sealing these joints such that when falling onto water, the helicopter would float safely to await for rescue. Inflatable air bags are also provided to reduce the impact of the helicopter upon landing on the ground."
"Three methods of deploying safety parachutes from a helicopter for landing it in case of an accident are shown. They solve the problem of the parachutes becoming tangled with the large propeller of a helicopter in such circumstances. Additionally, speed reduction jets are provided to reduce the falling speed of the helicopter to achieve its safe landing. Inflatable air bags are provided on both sides of its belly and inflatable tubular gaskets are provided around the door joints for sealing these joints such that when falling onto water, the helicopter would float safely to await for rescue. Inflatable air bags are also provided to reduce the impact of the helicopter upon landing on the ground."
Last edited by Dave Jackson; 9th April 2002 at 22:15.
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 22
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This is a good question and one not readily answered at training facilities. I spent a large protion of my early years over trees and asked several oldtimers what their thoughts on it were. This included one character who had twice autorotated into large pine tree forests. These men were operating pistons with the engines just behind them and were all insistent that you go into the trees tail first/tail low or at least moving gently backwards. They had seen cases where the machine went through the tops and once the downward momentum started the machine usually went all the way to the ground, breaking up on the way and the engine arriving at terra firma just behind the humans in front.
Result: Sandwich
They all said the hardest thing was getting down the tree if you got hung up. One of them survived the crash only to break his leg getting down. He thought you were better off staying in the tree if it was known you had gone down and there was daylight left to winch you out. He always carried fifty feet of rope after that. There was the case of a guy who was hit on the head by an unsecured toolbox in the cockpit as they went down. The other two had minor injuries. Some of them thought it was best to settle in level so the blades were slowed evenly by the tops, rather than in, for example, a ditching case where rolling to the right in a US machine should cause the transmission to move rearward if it is ripped loose. Lots of things to consider. However, they all agreed that the worst case was to go through all the way to the ground nose first.
After talking to all I could and thinking about it over the years, I always thought to myself that I'd go in between two tree tops overflaring slightly so I was nose high moving gently backwards simply for the reason that it helped negate the worst case scenario. It beats having no plan at all.
Result: Sandwich
They all said the hardest thing was getting down the tree if you got hung up. One of them survived the crash only to break his leg getting down. He thought you were better off staying in the tree if it was known you had gone down and there was daylight left to winch you out. He always carried fifty feet of rope after that. There was the case of a guy who was hit on the head by an unsecured toolbox in the cockpit as they went down. The other two had minor injuries. Some of them thought it was best to settle in level so the blades were slowed evenly by the tops, rather than in, for example, a ditching case where rolling to the right in a US machine should cause the transmission to move rearward if it is ripped loose. Lots of things to consider. However, they all agreed that the worst case was to go through all the way to the ground nose first.
After talking to all I could and thinking about it over the years, I always thought to myself that I'd go in between two tree tops overflaring slightly so I was nose high moving gently backwards simply for the reason that it helped negate the worst case scenario. It beats having no plan at all.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
From: Florida
There was an excellent document written by the the US Army entitled : 'How to Crash a Helicopter'. Having read it, it gave me a whole different way of thinking about what to do should the cogs stop grinding. I can't remember the website, but drop me an email me at: [email protected] and I'll send you a copy if you like. Same goes for anyone else out there who would like it.
