Robinson down in France
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And condolences too from this neck of the woods. It sure would be nice, but perhaps not crucial to find out at least what dash number the blades were, but heck anything, heart attack major collision with a bird who knows, none of us do at the mo, it's just that sometimes little details like dash numbers of major or minor components are left off investigators reports, mostly because investigators are not skilled often in helicopters where it can matter a great deal.
Keep up the photos, great catalogue. Recently read a book, "Bugles and A Tiger." A brilliant piece by a well known author, no doubt you've read many of his works and details the every day functions of many of people in your neck of the woods. Mighty tough hombres and of course world renowned as very fierce warriors..
BTW when you stick it into these R22's would you mind doing it tongue in cheek, as most do, and you may have noticed that many of us have questioned the safety on a pro-rata basis of the squirrels of late also.e.g. your own very brilliant save from an emergency my have been as a result of an overlooked AD ???????????????.
Keep up the photos, great catalogue. Recently read a book, "Bugles and A Tiger." A brilliant piece by a well known author, no doubt you've read many of his works and details the every day functions of many of people in your neck of the woods. Mighty tough hombres and of course world renowned as very fierce warriors..
BTW when you stick it into these R22's would you mind doing it tongue in cheek, as most do, and you may have noticed that many of us have questioned the safety on a pro-rata basis of the squirrels of late also.e.g. your own very brilliant save from an emergency my have been as a result of an overlooked AD ???????????????.
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Blakmax,
The door comment was related to another post on this thread. The new Robbie blade data is available via "google"...I would be interested in your opinion.
TET,
This machine was a 44, not a 22.
VF,
I just spent 2 weeks in India, returning to Sydney today. What a fantastic place - I can see why you love being in that part of the world.
I always wait for you to make a comment about a Robbie accident...but maybe you should be a little more analytical...in AUS the rate for heli accidents prorata is far and away weighted towards other brands - particularly Eurocopter. Stick to the facts and your input on this matter (in isolation) would be well welcomed.
Arrrj
The door comment was related to another post on this thread. The new Robbie blade data is available via "google"...I would be interested in your opinion.
TET,
This machine was a 44, not a 22.
VF,
I just spent 2 weeks in India, returning to Sydney today. What a fantastic place - I can see why you love being in that part of the world.
I always wait for you to make a comment about a Robbie accident...but maybe you should be a little more analytical...in AUS the rate for heli accidents prorata is far and away weighted towards other brands - particularly Eurocopter. Stick to the facts and your input on this matter (in isolation) would be well welcomed.
Arrrj
Speaking of accidents vs. manufacturer.
Is there any publicly accessible (internet) source that keeps a tally per year of accidents/fatal/minor vs. Brand ? Of course one would need the number of registered aircraft of each brand to draw any conclusion...
But then again, one would need a pilot-error/other-persons-error/aircraft-caused column in that statistics as well: If the ground crew tugs on the cable and pulls it in your rotor-disk it's neither pilot nor manufacturer, that is to blame.
I'm in no way well informed but the number of proven or alleged cases where the machine failed seem to be highest with Robinsons (SFAR73, mast bumping, mast rocking, "requiring" a governor...). I just don't hear that amount of technical issues reported about Enstroms or 300C(B(i)) or 47Gs.
But then if there were 1000 times more R22/44 flying than Enstroms+300C+47G combined it would be natural to constantly read about then. Hence my request for statistics accident data.
P.
P.
Is there any publicly accessible (internet) source that keeps a tally per year of accidents/fatal/minor vs. Brand ? Of course one would need the number of registered aircraft of each brand to draw any conclusion...
But then again, one would need a pilot-error/other-persons-error/aircraft-caused column in that statistics as well: If the ground crew tugs on the cable and pulls it in your rotor-disk it's neither pilot nor manufacturer, that is to blame.
I'm in no way well informed but the number of proven or alleged cases where the machine failed seem to be highest with Robinsons (SFAR73, mast bumping, mast rocking, "requiring" a governor...). I just don't hear that amount of technical issues reported about Enstroms or 300C(B(i)) or 47Gs.
But then if there were 1000 times more R22/44 flying than Enstroms+300C+47G combined it would be natural to constantly read about then. Hence my request for statistics accident data.
P.
P.
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comment on new blade design
Aaarj
Looking at the blade design is a waste of time. This is not a design issue, it is a processing issue, and I know RHC do not divulge data on their processes. Even the best design in the world is hopeless unless the bonding processes are sufficient to provide log-term bond integrity. Maybe RHC has changed their processes. Only time will tell.
For my two cents about Robbie bashing, my concern is with the deficiencies in regulations relating to how bonded structures are certified. This is a universal problem, not just limited to RHC.
Regards
Blakmax
Looking at the blade design is a waste of time. This is not a design issue, it is a processing issue, and I know RHC do not divulge data on their processes. Even the best design in the world is hopeless unless the bonding processes are sufficient to provide log-term bond integrity. Maybe RHC has changed their processes. Only time will tell.
For my two cents about Robbie bashing, my concern is with the deficiencies in regulations relating to how bonded structures are certified. This is a universal problem, not just limited to RHC.
Regards
Blakmax
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Sadly in my view, one of the most likely scenarios is hardly ever discussed it seems. That is - failure to properly manage carb heat (doesn't apply obviously to Raven 2), governor disguises problem until the donk actually stops, confusion, don't lower lever quickly enough, rotor blow back, hits tailboom and general disintegration.
On the occasions when I have caught people by surprise with a simulated engine failure, I have rarely seen anyone lower the lever quickly enough, if at all. I have also had three genuine in flight power failures over the years (not in Robinsons) with qualified pilots handling and on two of those occasions, I had to ram the lever down when they failed to do so, and the other was far too slow. This is rather depressing!
On the occasions when I have caught people by surprise with a simulated engine failure, I have rarely seen anyone lower the lever quickly enough, if at all. I have also had three genuine in flight power failures over the years (not in Robinsons) with qualified pilots handling and on two of those occasions, I had to ram the lever down when they failed to do so, and the other was far too slow. This is rather depressing!
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Hi,
I just bought my own second hand Robinson R44 and I am very interested in this topic.
As I am a new aviation owner and a low houred pilot what advice can you guys give me to make sure I don't end doing the same thing as the R44 in France that crashed ?
I have been getting used to my new bird and have been doing low level flying today as we have not had very nice weather in Ireland.
Thanks.
Also, is it ok to land on top of a mountain do people know? There is a mountain near me with a church on top and I am just wondering could I land on it or are there winds etc I need to watch out for. I know by right I should do one of the mountain courses but wher I live the mountains are not that high and no mountain training where I live.
I just bought my own second hand Robinson R44 and I am very interested in this topic.
As I am a new aviation owner and a low houred pilot what advice can you guys give me to make sure I don't end doing the same thing as the R44 in France that crashed ?
I have been getting used to my new bird and have been doing low level flying today as we have not had very nice weather in Ireland.
Thanks.
Also, is it ok to land on top of a mountain do people know? There is a mountain near me with a church on top and I am just wondering could I land on it or are there winds etc I need to watch out for. I know by right I should do one of the mountain courses but wher I live the mountains are not that high and no mountain training where I live.
@RVDT
So an average 15 fatalities(!)/year.
How did you get the site to list accidents by aircraft type? If I go to Database and then piston aircraft I don't get any helicopters listed?
edit: google is my friend: one needs a 300C crash then one gets the listing.
Hughes269 and offspring
Not differenciating fatal and non fatal accidents, (anyone care to sum the 300C fatalities on the 8 pages?
)
they've got 732 accidents listed for all 269/300 variants in 48 years
e.g 15.25/year vs. 16.7/17.1 per year for R22/R44.
Basicall the same, seems to be a nature's constant
Interestingly the R44 had more accidents/year than the R22, let alone 300C
So an average 15 fatalities(!)/year.
How did you get the site to list accidents by aircraft type? If I go to Database and then piston aircraft I don't get any helicopters listed?
edit: google is my friend: one needs a 300C crash then one gets the listing.
Hughes269 and offspring
Not differenciating fatal and non fatal accidents, (anyone care to sum the 300C fatalities on the 8 pages?
)they've got 732 accidents listed for all 269/300 variants in 48 years
e.g 15.25/year vs. 16.7/17.1 per year for R22/R44.
Basicall the same, seems to be a nature's constant
Interestingly the R44 had more accidents/year than the R22, let alone 300C
Last edited by Reely340; 7th Sep 2012 at 21:35.
Reely340,
I mentioned to be careful with the numbers.
Averaging them over a year makes no sense at all.
Lies, damned lies, and statistics
I mentioned to be careful with the numbers.
Averaging them over a year makes no sense at all.
Lies, damned lies, and statistics
I wouldn't fly in a Robinson for the reason that there are a great number of accidents which contain statements such as "eye witness say they heard a bang...then saw the aircraft disintegrate..."
Carb heat, pilot mishandling, rotor blade delamination or something undescoverable it doesn't matter when the end result is the same.
Forget backing the data up over 10 years, just look at 2012 and you'll see something similar. These things go down with novice pilots, experienced pilots and student/instructors on lessons.
Fans of the marque will come back to numbers built/ how cheap they are etc. A young motorcycle rider was looking to get his first helmet and asked how much he should spend on his new lid. "If you have a £50 head then buy a £50 helmet...."
Carb heat, pilot mishandling, rotor blade delamination or something undescoverable it doesn't matter when the end result is the same.
Forget backing the data up over 10 years, just look at 2012 and you'll see something similar. These things go down with novice pilots, experienced pilots and student/instructors on lessons.
Fans of the marque will come back to numbers built/ how cheap they are etc. A young motorcycle rider was looking to get his first helmet and asked how much he should spend on his new lid. "If you have a £50 head then buy a £50 helmet...."
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My apologies for post 21, the address bar should have styled in VF for Verticl Freedom.
Pittsextra and oths, re;-
I guess well, yeah fans of the marque would first of all not talk about carb ice in a fuel injected Raven II. They would have also known that most of the marque these days are equipped with automatic carb heat control as long as it's not locked off of course.
I agree totally with rotorfossil and have put my accounts up before of those who fail to do the elementary "push down on the lever" when the music stops. I mean really, have these people ever played musical chairs as kids! Talk about a protected upbringing. Where was the headmaster with the birch when you were too slow to grab a chair, savvy - no prizes for second place dumbo.
Sure, I also went right to the limit with a mustering 1800 hour pilot, first time up with me, asking twice "can I show him some autos." I complied. I was scared witless at 82% before I got it going back up-hill. Now I know, those who ask more than once have no f'n idea, cos - they - were - not - trained.
Sure Pitts, I can come back and talk about numbers built, absolute paucity of training standards and those ill trained persons just happen to be driving a Robinson when something happens, why blame Frank for that? You need to get real, perhaps your experience is limited.
I can talk about 42 times onto the ground not of my own choosing only three of which were in Robinson products, the rest in the old fable. You name it - freewheel, fan drive, rocker shaft fell out, through bolts broke, all four damper clamp bolts parted company (that was F'n scary why I am still here I don't know) another day at refueling I notice the fore and aft swash plate bolt broken off and halfway out (another cup of really strong coffee) and ( you may have noticed there was an AD for dash numbers of those bolts as a result of that), T/'R drive shaft popped once cos someone had put the coupling at the wrong distance, fuel pump seal lets go - pumps fuel all overboard in 45 mins, Cylinder head starts panting - stupid sod wasn't even being pushed, stuck valve problems by the bucket load before our engine shop had a precision line bore drill, M/R blade outboard twelve inches delams and I sit out not five minutes from base cos no "B" would answer the radio, then there's the simple things like turbo failure, w'gate fell of, one exhaust elbow pipe fell off at - ermmm maybe a tad above max gross -over real rough country, oil pipe broke on xmon then pored all over the turbo- fire in flight, dashboard shorted out at night - cough, did I say that - electrics off and small panic, magneto idler shafts x 2 broken, and so it goes on - seldom was there repetition. Sorry to bore you but it's in the training, you are prepared because you were trained for an emergency it is no big deal. Be capable of attending to the basics and live another day.
Don't blame the product when the operator and particularly the ab-initio instructor may be at fault or just totally missed it, and as I illustrate, Frank's got a long way to go to catch the '47's, and other products. From where I sit he's lookin' pretty good and you may have a long way to go.
Oh and I should put a shot across the bows of this outfit that Rivet refers to, as I have done before.
What have these dudes done except polish chairs with their posteriors and publish figures? Have these faceless people got out and started pushing people around with their findings? If they cannot do that then surely they should be disbanded and get some people in there that will, to tighten standards, and save lives of course.
In the meantime i do sincerely wish the investigators a clear head and an open mind on the subject of this thread. For the bereaved, hang in there have faith, please try to keep calm.
cheers Tet
Pittsextra and oths, re;-
Fans of the marque
I agree totally with rotorfossil and have put my accounts up before of those who fail to do the elementary "push down on the lever" when the music stops. I mean really, have these people ever played musical chairs as kids! Talk about a protected upbringing. Where was the headmaster with the birch when you were too slow to grab a chair, savvy - no prizes for second place dumbo.
Sure, I also went right to the limit with a mustering 1800 hour pilot, first time up with me, asking twice "can I show him some autos." I complied. I was scared witless at 82% before I got it going back up-hill. Now I know, those who ask more than once have no f'n idea, cos - they - were - not - trained.
Sure Pitts, I can come back and talk about numbers built, absolute paucity of training standards and those ill trained persons just happen to be driving a Robinson when something happens, why blame Frank for that? You need to get real, perhaps your experience is limited.
I can talk about 42 times onto the ground not of my own choosing only three of which were in Robinson products, the rest in the old fable. You name it - freewheel, fan drive, rocker shaft fell out, through bolts broke, all four damper clamp bolts parted company (that was F'n scary why I am still here I don't know) another day at refueling I notice the fore and aft swash plate bolt broken off and halfway out (another cup of really strong coffee) and ( you may have noticed there was an AD for dash numbers of those bolts as a result of that), T/'R drive shaft popped once cos someone had put the coupling at the wrong distance, fuel pump seal lets go - pumps fuel all overboard in 45 mins, Cylinder head starts panting - stupid sod wasn't even being pushed, stuck valve problems by the bucket load before our engine shop had a precision line bore drill, M/R blade outboard twelve inches delams and I sit out not five minutes from base cos no "B" would answer the radio, then there's the simple things like turbo failure, w'gate fell of, one exhaust elbow pipe fell off at - ermmm maybe a tad above max gross -over real rough country, oil pipe broke on xmon then pored all over the turbo- fire in flight, dashboard shorted out at night - cough, did I say that - electrics off and small panic, magneto idler shafts x 2 broken, and so it goes on - seldom was there repetition. Sorry to bore you but it's in the training, you are prepared because you were trained for an emergency it is no big deal. Be capable of attending to the basics and live another day.
Don't blame the product when the operator and particularly the ab-initio instructor may be at fault or just totally missed it, and as I illustrate, Frank's got a long way to go to catch the '47's, and other products. From where I sit he's lookin' pretty good and you may have a long way to go.
Oh and I should put a shot across the bows of this outfit that Rivet refers to, as I have done before.
Flight Safety Foundation
In the meantime i do sincerely wish the investigators a clear head and an open mind on the subject of this thread. For the bereaved, hang in there have faith, please try to keep calm.
cheers Tet
Captain TET,
I could add to your list but them days are over I think and it's time to chalk up another White Can.
I just simply answered Reely340's question for him to the best of my ability to use the interweb.
About Flight Safety Foundation here. Which is a free non profit organisation.
If you peruse the info for the R22 you can probably see where the training courses run by the company and approved operators kicked in. That was mandated by the FAA SFAR 73 and is not universally adopted unfortunately.
As with all of these things and in your own case of 42 incidents to the ground I would suggest were not all attributable to old Mr Bell or Lycoming directly either.
With most decisions you would agree that the informed one is no doubt the best. These days there is more information freely and readily available and can sometimes be too much and taken the wrong way I guess.
I could add to your list but them days are over I think and it's time to chalk up another White Can.
I just simply answered Reely340's question for him to the best of my ability to use the interweb.
About Flight Safety Foundation here. Which is a free non profit organisation.
If you peruse the info for the R22 you can probably see where the training courses run by the company and approved operators kicked in. That was mandated by the FAA SFAR 73 and is not universally adopted unfortunately.
As with all of these things and in your own case of 42 incidents to the ground I would suggest were not all attributable to old Mr Bell or Lycoming directly either.
With most decisions you would agree that the informed one is no doubt the best. These days there is more information freely and readily available and can sometimes be too much and taken the wrong way I guess.
